Nov 19, 2025 Planning Commission

[I. CALL TO ORDER]

[00:00:11]

NOVEMBER 19TH, 2025 MEETING OF THE STILLWATER PLANNING COMMISSION. WE ARE ALL COMMISSIONERS ARE PRESENT EXCEPT FOR COMMISSIONER SWANSON. WITH THAT, THE FIRST ITEM UP WE

[III. APPROVAL OF MINUTES]

[V. CONSENT AGENDA]

[Case No. CD2025-034]

MR. MENHENNITT GOOD EVENING, CHAIR. COMMISSIONERS. PLEASURE TO SEE YOU ALL THIS EVENING.

WE'RE DISCUSSING TODAY 501 MAPLE STREET WEST, WHICH IS IN THE RB TWO FAMILY RESIDENTIAL DISTRICT. AND THE APPLICANT IS SEEKING TO REPLACE AN EXISTING SUBSIDIZED GARAGE WITH A NEW GARAGE THAT BETTER MEETS THE NEEDS OF HIS FAMILY. AS FAR AS REGULATORY REVIEW, WE AGAIN ARE IN THE RB DISTRICT AS WELL AS THE NEIGHBORHOOD CONSERVATION DISTRICT. DUE TO THE PROMINENCE OF THIS STRUCTURE ON A CORNER LOT AND WITH DOUBLE FRONTAGE. THIS PROJECT DID GO BEFORE THE HERITAGE PRESERVATION COMMISSION IN OCTOBER FOR DESIGN REVIEW APPROVAL, AND IT DID RECEIVE A DESIGN REVIEW APPROVAL AT THE OCTOBER HPC MEETING. THE PROPOSED WORK IS A NEW GARAGE, A 19 BY 33FT WITH TWO STALLS AND SOME STORAGE SPACE. IT WILL REQUIRE THE DEMOLITION OF THE EXISTING GARAGE AND DECK THAT IS SITTING ATOP IT. THE EXISTING STRUCTURE IS AT A ZERO LINE OR ZERO LOT LINE SETBACK, AND THIS PROPOSES TO CONTINUE THE EXISTING ZERO LOT LINE SETBACK, THOUGH, GIVEN THAT IT'S NOT EXACERBATING OR ENCROACHING INTO THE RIGHT OF WAY, VARIANCE IS NOT REQUIRED. THE REMAINDER OF THE RETAINING WALL ALONG EVERETT STREET NORTH WILL REMAIN AS IS, EXCEPT FOR WHERE THE GARAGE IS TO BE EXPANDED. IT WILL LOOK SEAMLESS IN SIDING AND IN DESIGN, WITH THE HOME ABOVE IT, AND THE SOUTHERN LIMIT OF THE GARAGE EXPANSION WILL MATCH THAT OF THE EXISTING HOME. THERE'S AN EXISTING DECK ABOVE THE EXISTING GARAGE, AND THE APPLICANT PROPOSES TO CONTINUE THE USE OF THE ROOFTOP ATOP THE

[00:05:01]

AND IN ADDITION TO THAT, EVEN THE PROPOSED NEW CONDITION OF THE SITE WILL RESULT IN 39% COVERAGE WHEN A PROPOSAL COULD THEORETICALLY ALLOW UP TO 50. SO THE STAFF RECOMMENDATION. I APOLOGIZE FOR THE TYPO AND THE RESOLUTION THERE. I BELIEVE THIS IS RESOLUTION PC 20 2516.

WE REQUEST THAT YOU MOTION TO ADOPT RESOLUTION PC 20 2516 TO APPROVE THE VARIANCE TO LOT COVERAGE REQUIREMENTS IN THE RB TWO FAMILY RESIDENTIAL DISTRICT FOR THE CONSTRUCTION OF A GARAGE AT 501 MAPLE STREET WEST. I NOW STAND FOR QUESTIONS. DO YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS FOR STAFF? JUST FOR SANITY OF OUR RESOLUTION, I THINK IT'S 2020 5-034. COUNCIL MEMBER. THE CASE NUMBER IS DASH 034. OKAY, SORRY, TRYING TO HELP AND NOT BEING SUCCESSFUL. THANK YOU. DO WE HAVE QUESTIONS FOR ANY OTHER QUESTIONS FOR STAFF. GREAT. THANKS. IS THE APPLICANT HERE.

HAVE ANYTHING THAT THEY WISH TO ADD. NOT SEEING THEM. IF YOU HAVE SOMETHING YOU WANT TO ADD COME ON. I DON'T NEED TO ADD ANYTHING OKAY? OKAY. WITH THAT, I WILL OPEN THE PUBLIC HEARING.

ANYONE WISHING TO TESTIFY ON THIS ITEM, PLEASE COME FORWARD TO THE PODIUM. SEEING NO ONE, I WILL CLOSE THE PUBLIC HEARING COMMISSIONERS. AND ACTUALLY, I HAVE A QUESTION FOR THE APPLICANT. IF YOU WOULDN'T MIND COMING FORWARD, THERE'S GOING TO BE A BUTTON ON THERE THAT YOU CAN PRESS TO TURN THE LIGHTS GREEN. THAT'LL MEAN THAT THE MICROPHONE IS ON. OH, YOU JUST TURNED IT OFF. JUST PRESS IT ONCE. THERE WE GO. GREAT. AND IF YOU COULD JUST NAME AND ADDRESS FOR THE RECORD. YEAH. TYLER, LEUKEMIA, 501 MAPLE STREET WEST. OKAY. GREAT. SO ONE THING THAT I NOTICED IN THE DRAWINGS AND I'VE NOTICED THIS ALREADY STARTED TO HAPPEN, IS ON THE BOULEVARD AREA, IT LOOKS LIKE THERE'S PAVERS IN THE SECTION THAT IS THE BOULEVARD THERE, WHICH IS AN AREA THAT TYPICALLY, YOU KNOW, ALLOWS RAIN INFILTRATION. IS THAT HOW FAR IS THE YOU KNOW, ARE YOU THINKING THAT THERE WOULD BE PAVERS OR WHAT'S. NO. SO THAT WAS JUST OUR DESIGNERS PUT THAT IN THERE. I'M NOT SURE WHY, BUT IT IS INTENDED TO BE GRASS THERE. THE WHOLE THING WILL BE GRASS. SO THERE'S GOING TO BE A SMALL PORTION JUST TO THE SOUTH OF THAT GARAGE WHERE IT'LL BE PAVED FOR, YOU KNOW, JUST LIKE A TRAILER STORAGE. OKAY. BUT THAT'LL ALL BE, YOU KNOW, BUILT TO CODE AND LET EVERYTHING, ALL THE RAINWATER GO. GO. BECAUSE.

YEAH, BECAUSE I'M NOT SURE THE TRAILER STORAGE IS ALLOWED ON A ON A BOULEVARD. OKAY. SO THAT WAS PART OF THE REASON FOR THE PART OF THE QUESTION HERE AS TO WHAT WE COULD STORE IT. NOW, IF WE CAN GET APPROVAL FOR THE GARAGE, WE COULD STORE THE TRAILER IN THE GARAGE AS WELL.

SO I MEAN, RIGHT NOW THERE'S JUST ON THE STREET BECAUSE THERE'S NO OTHER PLACE TO PUT

[00:10:05]

YEAH. SO I'LL TELL THE WIFE OKAY OKAY. BUT OKAY. YEAH OKAY. BUT BUT THE PAD THAT YOU KIND OF HAVE THERE NOW IS GOING TO BE THE MAX OF THE. YEAH. WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO RECLAIM OF THE BOULEVARD OKAY. OKAY. GREAT. THANKS. I THINK THAT'LL THAT MAY HELP. SO COMMISSIONERS.

YEAH WE'RE WE'RE DONE. THANK YOU. COMMISSIONERS MAKE A MOTION TO APPROVE CASE NUMBER 2025 034 WITH CONDITION STATED. OKAY. WE HAVE A MOTION AND A SECOND. DO WE HAVE DISCUSSION ON THIS ITEM? I YEAH, I SEE THIS ONE AS A YOU KNOW, WE'RE BASICALLY REPLACING A GARAGE.

WE'RE MAKING IT NICER. WE'RE MAKING IT SLIGHTLY BIGGER. YOU KNOW, AND ESPECIALLY WITH THE RECLAIM OF THE BOULEVARD, WE DON'T MAKE THAT BOULEVARD SECTION WORSE, THAT WE'RE GETTING MORE INFILTRATION. RIGHT. AND CERTAINLY THE PRACTICAL DIFFICULTY HERE IS THE SUBSTANDARD SIZE OF THE LOT AND THE WEIRD CONFIGURATION AND THE AND THE ELEVATION AS WELL.

YOU KNOW THAT THE HOUSE IS A FULL STORY UP FROM THE FROM THE, THE STREET EITHER DIRECTION. SO, SO WE HAVE THE WE HAVE THE MOTION. AND SECOND ANY FURTHER DISCUSSION SEEING NONE. ALL THOSE IN FAVOR SIGNIFY BY SAYING AYE. THOSE OPPOSED. GREAT. CONGRATULATIONS. PARDON ME, CHAIR, IF I MAY, FOR MY RECORDS, WHO WAS OUR SECOND ON THAT MOTION. THERE WAS NO. OKAY.

YEP, YEP. I'M SORRY. I'LL TRY AND I'LL TRY AND REMEMBER TO CALL THOSE OUT. I'VE BEEN I'VE

[Case No. CD2025-045]

THIS WOULD BE THREE FEET FROM THE SOUTH PROPERTY LINE, BUT THE EXISTING HOME ALREADY ENCROACHES TO WITHIN TWO FEET OF THE EXISTING PROPERTY LINE, SO A VARIANCE HERE IS NOT REQUIRED, EVEN THOUGH THE STRUCTURE WOULD TYPICALLY BE REQUIRED TO BE SET AT FIVE FEET.

THE CURRENT STRUCTURED LOT COVERAGE IS APPROXIMATELY 25%, WHICH IS THE CODE MAXIMUM FOR THIS DISTRICT. AND THE ADDITION OF THIS DECK, WHICH IS ABOUT 377FT■!S, WOULD BRING THE TOTAL LOT COVERAGE TO 28.77%. AS FOR THE SITE MAP SUBMITTED BY THE APPLICANT, YOU CAN SEE HERE THAT THE. SO THIRD STREET SOUTH IS TO YOUR WEST. SO THE HOUSE IS THE STRUCTURE NEAREST TO THE STREET. THERE'S AN EXISTING DRIVEWAY ALONG THE NORTH SIDE OF THE HOUSE THAT ACCESSES A LARGE PAVED SPACE, AS WELL AS THE DETACHED 400 SQUARE FOOT GARAGE IN THE REAR. FOR RENDERINGS. THESE HAVE BEEN PROVIDED BY THE APPLICANT. THEY SHOW ROUGHLY THE COLORS, ELEVATION AND DIMENSIONS OF THE DECK PROPOSED, AND FOR AN AERIAL HERE YOU CAN SEE THE HOME WHEN VIEWED MOST CLEARLY FROM THE NORTH AND THE ESTIMATED LOCATION OF THE GARAGE REPLACES THE EXISTING LANDING AND STAIRCASE TO THE REAR WITH A DECK THAT TAKES UP THIS GRAVEL TYPE OR GRAVEL APPEARING SPACE IN THE REAR. IF IT'S NOT GRAVEL, THE APPLICANT, IF HE'S HERE, IS FREE TO CORRECT THAT FOR THE RECORD LATER, BUT THE DECK WOULD BE LOCATED KIND OF WHERE I'M POINTING WITH THE LASER POINTER. NOW, THE FINDINGS FOR PRACTICAL DIFFICULTIES ON THIS LOT ARE A BIT MORE CHALLENGING FOR STAFF, BECAUSE THIS LOT IS NOT SUBSTANDARD, THOUGH IT IS VERY CLOSE TO JUST FEET OVER THE DIMENSIONAL LOT SIZE MINIMUM FOR THE RV DISTRICT. IT DOES MEET THE MINIMUM LOT SIZE, AND SO AS FAR AS THE PLIGHT OF THE LANDOWNER IS DUE TO CIRCUMSTANCES UNIQUE TO THE PROPERTY, STAFF DOES NOT FEEL

[00:15:03]

HOWEVER, THE FIRST AND THIRD FINDINGS THAT THE PROPERTY OWNER PROPOSES TO USE THE LAND IN A REASONABLE MANNER FOR A USE PERMITTED IN THE ZONE WHERE THE LAND IS LOCATED, BUT THE PROPOSAL IS NOT PERMITTED BY OTHER OFFICIAL CONTROLS. THIS DOES SEEM TO BE FOUND. IT IS REASONABLE TO LOCATE A DECK IN THE REAR YARD OF A RESIDENTIAL PARCEL, AND THE VARIANCE, IF GRANTED, WILL NOT ALTER THE ESSENTIAL CHARACTER OF THE NEIGHBORHOOD. STAFF ALSO FINDS THAT TO BE TRUE. REALLY, WHERE OUR RECOMMENDATION ON THIS CASE COMES DOWN TO IS THAT THE HOME ALREADY HAS A SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF IMPERVIOUS SURFACES, BOTH STRUCTURED AND NON-STRUCTURED, LYING AT ABOUT THAT 50% MAXIMUM, 25 AND 25 FOR STRUCTURED AND NON-STRUCTURED SURFACES, AND THAT THIS LOT IS ALREADY OF SIZE, WHERE IT MEETS THE MINIMUM DIMENSIONAL STANDARDS FOR THE DISTRICT. FOR THOSE REASONS, IF YOU ARE TO APPROVE THE VARIANCE BEFORE US THIS EVENING, THE RESOLUTION PC 20 2517 THAT YOU HAVE IS FOR APPROVAL. AND THAT RECOMMENDED CONDITION OF APPROVAL WOULD QUITE IDENTICALLY MATCH THAT WHICH WE JUST SAW. IN CASE DASH 034, THE CONDITION OF APPROVAL IS THAT THE APPLICANT WILL CONSTRUCT THE DECK ACCORDING TO ALL PERTINENT BUILDING CODE STANDARDS. HOWEVER, THE STAFF RECOMMENDATION IS TO DENY RESOLUTION PC 20 2517 APPROVING THE VARIANCE TO LOT COVERAGE REQUIREMENTS IN THE B TWO FAMILY RESIDENTIAL DISTRICT FOR THE CONSTRUCTION. THAT SHOULD SAY DECK AT 515 THIRD STREET SOUTH. MY APOLOGIES. COMMISSION AND THEN SUBSEQUENT TO THAT THAT YOU MOTION TO ADOPT FINDINGS OF DENIAL FOR CASE NUMBER KD 2025 045I NOW STAND FOR QUESTIONS. DO WE HAVE ANY QUESTIONS FOR STAFF? SEEING NONE. IS THE APPLICANT HERE? DO THEY HAVE ANYTHING YOU WISH TO ADD? SEEING NO. ON APPROACHING I WILL OPEN THE PUBLIC HEARING. ANYONE WISHING TO TESTIFY ON THIS ITEM. SEEING NO ONE WISHING TO TESTIFY, I WILL CLOSE THE PUBLIC HEARING.

COMMISSIONERS. WHAT DO WE THINK? SO DO WE HAVE A. DO WE HAVE A MOTION THAT WE CAN START THIS WITH? OR. I RECOMMEND THAT, OR I DON'T RECOMMEND I MOVE THAT WE DENY THE REQUESTED VARIANCE IN CASE NUMBER 2025 045 FOR FOR FAILURE TO MEET THE PRACTICAL DIFFICULTIES TEST. I DON'T SEE ANYTHING UNIQUE ABOUT THIS PARTICULAR. LOT AND CAN'T SEE ANY REASON TO PROVIDE A VARIANCE TO THE LOT COVERAGE RATIO. OKAY, LET'S SECOND OFTEN SECOND BY MOVE BY STONEWALL.

SECOND BY HOFFMAN. ANY FURTHER DISCUSSION ON THIS ITEM. I GUESS I WOULD AGREE THAT THE PRACTICAL DIFFICULTIES HAVEN'T NOWHERE CLOSE TO BEING MET ON THIS ONE. SEEING NO FURTHER DISCUSSION. ALL THOSE IN FAVOR SIGNIFY BY SAYING AYE. AYE. AND THOSE OPPOSED THAT THAT MOTION

[Case No. CD2025-049]

[00:20:02]

THE APPLICANTS ARE ALSO SEEKING THREE SETBACK REQUIREMENTS. THAT IS TO THE FRONT WHERE THEY ARE SEEKING A FIVE FOOT VARIANCE TO THE 30 FOOT STANDARD, TO THE INTERIOR SIDE, WHERE THEY'RE SEEKING A 2.2FT VARIANCE TO THE TEN FOOT STANDARD, AND THEN THE EXTERIOR SIDE, WHERE THEY'RE SEEKING A 22.2FT VARIANCE TO THE 30 FOOT EXTERIOR SIDE STANDARD. FOR THE SITE MAP THAT HAS BEEN PROPOSED. THIS IS VIEWING TOWARD THE SOUTH. YOU HAVE WILLOW STREET, ITS NORTHERN FRONTAGE, THE BOTTOM OF THE SCREEN HERE, BUT THIS IS A PROPOSED PREDOMINANTLY SINGLE FAMILY OR SINGLE LEVEL HOME WITH A LOWER LEVEL WALKOUT AND SPACE WITH AN UPPER STORY DECK. THIS LOT, AS I'LL DISCUSS IN A MOMENT, HAS A SIGNIFICANT GRADE AVERAGING. I BELIEVE THE APPLICANT STATED IN THEIR NARRATIVE 16%. AND SO IT IS REASONABLE TO PRESUME THAT A SIDE LOADING GARAGE, AS YOU SEE, IS MORE FEASIBLE FROM A GRADING PERSPECTIVE THAN WOULD BE ONE THAT IS FRONT LOADING, WHICH WOULD MINIMIZE THE AMOUNT OF IMPERVIOUS SURFACE NEEDED THROUGH THE PROVISION OF A SHORTER DRIVEWAY. BUT THE GRADING CONCERNS WITH THAT SLOPE STAFF DOES AGREE THAT THERE ARE SOME PRACTICAL DIFFICULTIES WITH LOT COVERAGE, GIVEN THE GRADE AND THE NEED FOR THAT FLARED DRIVEWAY, BUT HERE IS SOME OF THE PROPOSED ELEVATIONS. THIS IS WHAT THE HOME WOULD LOOK LIKE FROM THE MAIN FRONTAGE ON WILLOW STREET.

THE ADDRESSED FRONTAGE FROM FIRST STREET NORTH, THE SIDE AND THE REAR. AND SO THIS IS THE SOUTH, WHICH WOULD FACE THE NEIGHBOR ON FIRST STREET NORTH. THE FINDINGS, AS FAR AS PRACTICAL DIFFICULTIES GO, THERE ARE A NUMBER THAT ARE SUPPORTABLE. THIS LOT IS ALSO SIGNIFICANTLY SUBSTANDARD TO THE MINIMUM DIMENSIONAL REQUIREMENTS SET FOR A LOT IN THE RA DISTRICT. THE DIMENSIONAL REQUIREMENTS ARE THAT THE LOT MUST BE 10,000FT■!, AND THIS IS A 7500 SQUARE FOOT LOT. SO WE'RE ALREADY A QUARTER UNDERSIZED THERE. AS FAR AS THE PRACTICAL DIFFICULTIES FINDINGS. AGAIN, NUMBERS ONE AND THREE ARE QUITE EASILY SUPPORTABLE.

THE PROPERTY OWNER PROPOSES TO USE THE LAND IN A REASONABLE MANNER FOR A USE PERMITTED IN THE ZONE WHERE THE LAND IS LOCATED, BUT THE PROPOSAL IS NOT PERMITTED BY OTHER OFFICIAL CONTROLS. THE USE OF A SINGLE FAMILY HOME IN A DISTRICT ZONED FOR SINGLE FAMILY IS REASONABLE, AND THE VARIANCE, IF GRANTED, WILL NOT ALTER THE ESSENTIAL CHARACTER OF THE NEIGHBORHOOD.

A PREVIOUS SINGLE FAMILY HOME EXISTED ON THIS LOT, AND IN ADDITION TO THAT, IT ALREADY HAD ENCROACHMENTS TO THE SETBACKS MUCH GREATER THAN THAT WHICH ARE PROPOSED BY OUR APPLICANTS TODAY. WE ALSO HAVE RECEIVED MULTIPLE LETTERS OF SUPPORT FROM NEIGHBORS ADVOCATING FOR THE THOUGHTFUL CONSTRUCTION OF A SINGLE FAMILY HOME ON WHAT HAS BEEN AN EYESORE AS A VACANT LOT FOR OVER A DECADE. NOT ALL OF THE LETTERS OF SUPPORT OR LETTERS WE RECEIVED WERE IN SUPPORT, BUT MOST ARE. IF THOUGHTFUL DESIGN IS INCORPORATED. HOWEVER, WHEN IT COMES TO THE PLIGHT OF THE LANDOWNERS DUE TO CIRCUMSTANCES UNIQUE TO THE PROPERTY AND THAT ARE NOT CREATED BY THE LANDOWNER, WE AGREE THAT THIS IS A SUBSTANDARD LOT AND THAT A LOT COVERAGE VARIANCE IS MERITED BOTH BECAUSE OF THE STEEP SLOPE THAT NECESSITATES THE WIDER AND LONGER DRIVEWAY THAT I HAD MENTIONED, SO THAT A SIDE LOADING GARAGE CAN EXIST. THAT'S REASONABLE. WHERE WE FIND IT UNREASONABLE IS JUST

[00:25:06]

YES OKAY. THAT'S HOW IT'S STATED IN ROBERT'S RULES. ABSOLUTELY. CHAIR AND

[00:30:01]

SEEING NONE. IS THE APPLICANT HERE? DO THEY HAVE ANYTHING THEY WISH TO ADD? COME ON, COME ON, FORWARD AND PRESS THE BUTTON. INTRODUCE YOURSELF AND NAME AND ADDRESS FOR THE RECORD, PLEASE. THERE WE GO. HELLO, MY NAME IS WILLIAM VEZINA, 1008 EAGLE RIDGE COURT, STILLWATER, MINNESOTA. MY ADDRESS. GOOD EVENING, COMMISSIONERS. THANK YOU FOR ACCOMMODATING THIS THIS REQUEST FOR VARIANCE. I GUESS I'D LIKE TO SAY THAT OUR PROPOSAL IS OVERSIZE IN TERMS OF IMPERVIOUS SURFACE, BUT WE DO INTEND ON MITIGATING THAT ADDITIONAL 17.1%. GIVEN THE SIZE OF THE LOT AND THE GEOMETRY AND THE SLOPE OF THE LOT, THAT'S IT'S ABOUT THE BEST WE CAN DO IF WE REDUCE THE SIZE OF THE HOME THAT WE WANT TO BUILD TO THE 3000FT■!S, IT'S JUT SIMPLY WON'T WORK. AND HONESTLY, I THINK YOU'LL HAVE A HARD TIME FINDING SOMEBODY TO BUILD A HOUSE THAT SMALL ON THAT LOT BECAUSE IT'S IT'S IT'S HARD TO BUILD A SMALL HOUSE ON AN EXPENSIVE LOT. IT'S JUST PROBABLY WON'T HAPPEN. SO GIVEN THAT I BELIEVE WE'VE ADDRESSED THE CONCERNS OF THE HPC, WELL, WE HAVEN'T TALKED TO THE HPC, BUT GIVEN THE PROPOSED DESIGN OF THE HOUSE THAT WE WANT, WE BELIEVE THEY WILL APPROVE IT. WE'VE GOTTEN SOME TENTATIVE APPROVAL FROM NEIGHBORS WHO WE HAPPEN TO KNOW ANYWAY, AND THEY SEEM TO LIKE THE DESIGN OF WHAT WE'RE PROPOSING. AND THAT'S KIND OF WHERE WE'RE AT RIGHT NOW. IT'S I JUST ASK THAT YOU APPROVE THE VARIANCE. AND OF COURSE IT'S GOING TO BE THREE VARIANCES, NOT FOR WE WILL MOVE THE HOUSE AT 2.2FT FURTHER NORTH. THEREFORE IT COMES DOWN TO TO THREE, JUST TWO LOT SIZES IN THE IMPERVIOUS SURFACE. OTHER THAN THAT I THINK I DON'T HAVE ANYTHING ELSE TO ADD.

ANYTHING. OKAY. SHE LIKES RAIN GARDENS. YEAH. OKAY. SO ANYWAY, THAT'S ALL I HAVE TO ADD. OKAY.

GREAT. THANK YOU. QUESTIONS CAN I ASK DO WE HAVE ANY QUESTIONS FOR THE APPLICANT. YEAH. YOUR AREA OF EAGLE RIDGE COURT HAS A LOT OF RAIN GARDENS OVER THERE. SO APPRECIATE THAT. COULD YOU EXPAND A LITTLE BIT ON YOUR COMMENT THAT IT JUST WON'T WORK AT A SMALLER SIZE? FOR OUR PERSONAL USE? WE WANT A LARGER HOUSE OKAY. THANK YOU. YEAH. THAT'S REALLY THAT'S REALLY WHAT IT COMES DOWN TO. YOU KNOW, IT'S A ONE BEDROOM. IT'S A ONE BEDROOM WITH A WALKOUT. YOU KNOW, WE WANT TO HAVE LARGE FAMILY GATHERINGS, THAT SORT OF THING. AND AND HONESTLY, IT WOULD BE ABOUT A 22 BY 20 FOOT REDUCTION TO THE SIZE OF THE HOUSE ITSELF, THE STRUCTURE TO GET IT DOWN TO THE, TO THE SIZE THAT WAS AMENABLE TO STAFF AND THAT ALMOST CHOPS IT IN HALF, YOU KNOW, HONESTLY. AND THAT'S JUST WAY TOO SMALL. THANK YOU, THANK YOU. THANKS. WITH THAT, I WILL OPEN THE PUBLIC HEARING. ANYONE WISHING TO TESTIFY ON THIS ITEM. NOW IS THE TIME TO COME FORWARD TO THE PODIUM. AND PLEASE STATE YOUR NAME AND ADDRESS FOR THE RECORD, RYAN BROMBACHER, 1306 THIRD STREET SOUTH. AND I'M THE OWNER OF THE VACANT LOT, 1824 FIRST STREET NORTH. YOU KNOW, WE WERE THE ONES ME AND MY FAMILY WERE THE ONES THAT WENT THROUGH THE PROCESS TO BUILD A HOUSE ON THIS LOT. IT'S A VERY DIFFICULT LOT, AS YOU GUYS KNOW, AND AS THE HPC HAD WORKED WITH US FOR, FOR A YEAR BEFORE THIS, BECAUSE OF THE LOT AND BECAUSE OF THE, THE, THE STRUCTURE AND THE THE THE RAMIFICATIONS AROUND COVERAGE. AND THE OTHER THING THAT THAT WE RAN INTO WAS SIZING AND SCALING ON THAT STREET. MOST OF THOSE HOMES ARE SOMEWHAT SMALLER HOMES, THE WAY YOU GET AROUND IT, OF COURSE, IN A SMALL LOT, IS YOU GO UP WELL WITH THE LOT IN THE CHARACTERISTICS. YOU CAN'T ADD SQUARE FOOTAGE UP IN THOSE LOTS ON THAT LOT. I TRIED IT, IT DIDN'T DIDN'T GO OVER WELL DUE TO THE SIZING AND SCALING. ON TOP OF THAT, THE THE WAY THAT THEY HAVE TUCKED THE GARAGE ON THE NORTH OR, EXCUSE ME, THE WEST SIDE OF THE BUILDING, IT REDUCES THE SIZING AND SCALING ON THAT HOUSE TREMENDOUSLY. AND HOW DO YOU GET TO THAT? TO MAKE IT LOOK GOOD FROM THE STREET, YOU HAVE TO ADD SOME OF THAT.

THAT DRIVEWAY, WHICH EATS INTO A LARGE CHUNK OF THAT IMPERVIOUS SURFACE. THE FACT THAT THEY'RE GOING TO MITIGATE THAT WITH RAIN BARRELS, AND THE FACT THAT A GABLE END ROOF HOME ON THIS LOT WOULD FIT BEAUTIFULLY IN THAT NEIGHBORHOOD. AND IT'S IT'S,

[00:35:04]

SO SOMETHING'S BOTHERING ME ABOUT THIS. IT DOES FEEL LIKE. IT'S LIKE IT'S. I DON'T DISAGREE WITH ANYTHING THAT WAS SAID. WELL, FOR FOR ME, IN, IN TAKING A LOOK AT IT, YOU KNOW, I CAN SEE TO A CERTAIN EXTENT HAVING TO HAVE SOME SORT OF A VARIANCE, PROBABLY BECAUSE OF THE NEEDS FOR THE DRIVEWAY. BUT IF WE LOOK AT JUST THE BASIC STRUCTURE ITSELF, THAT THE BASIC STRUCTURE ITSELF IS ALREADY OVER THE 30% IMPERVIOUS, AND ESPECIALLY IN A CRITICAL AREA LIKE THIS THAT HAS SUCH A SLOPE DOWN TO THE RIVER, YOU KNOW, I THINK EVEN THE BEST OF RAIN BARRELS AREN'T GOING TO AREN'T GOING TO SOLVE A LOT OF THESE PROBLEMS, YOU KNOW, AND IT JUST MAKES IT WORSE FOR THE PEOPLE WHO ARE FURTHER DOWNHILL. AND I DON'T THINK THAT'S FAIR EITHER. AS MUCH AS WE'D LIKE TO SEE A BUILDING BE PLACED HERE, YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, 30% AND AND I I'M SORRY I DIDN'T DO IT BEFORE THIS, BUT I WAS TRYING TO FIND THE. WHAT? THE. 7555, YOU KNOW, SO IF WE GET SOMETHING THAT'S CLOSE TO 30% OF THAT, I COULD SEE EVEN PROBABLY DOING THE ENTIRE DRIVEWAY AS, AS A VARIANCE ON THIS POTENTIALLY. BUT, YOU KNOW, WE'RE STILL, YOU KNOW, EVEN JUST BEFORE WE HIT THAT FOR ME, I'M LOOKING AT THAT. WE'RE ALREADY OVER THE 30% JUST IN BUILDING. AND SO WE NEED TO BE TRYING TO MAKE THE BUILDING, YOU KNOW, THE PRACTICAL DIFFICULTY HERE. WE'VE GOT TO BE MAKING THE BUILDING SMALLER, NOT BIGGER. YOU KNOW, WE DON'T HAVE AN ARGUMENT FOR MAKING IT BIGGER. YOU KNOW, BECAUSE OF THE NATURE OF THE LOT. I CAN SEE DOING ALL OF THE SETBACKS, YOU KNOW, PLACING IT WHERE YOU NEED TO. BUT THAT GIVES ME THE OTHER THING IS THAT THEN AS WE SHRINK THE SIZE OF THE BUILDING, SHRINK THE SIZE OF THE THING, DO THEY STILL NEED THE ALL THE VARIANCES, YOU KNOW? AND SO FOR ME, LOOKING AT MR. MANNIX, LIST OF POTENTIAL RECOMMENDATIONS, NUMBER TWO, OPTION TWO SEEMS TO BE THE DIRECTION THAT THAT TO GO. YOU KNOW, AND KIND OF SUGGEST THAT IF WE COME UP WITH SOMETHING THAT SEEMS TO BE THE BUILDING GETS US UNDER 30%, YOU KNOW, THE BUILDING ITSELF GETS UNDER 30%. WE'LL GIVE YOU THE, YOU KNOW, WE'LL LOOK CAREFULLY AT A VARIANCE FOR THE DRIVEWAY SECTION OF IT BECAUSE OF THE NATURE OF THAT LOT. AND WE'LL PULL AND WE'LL TAKE UP WHATEVER VARIANCES IT'S GOING TO TAKE TO FIT THAT ONTO THAT LOT. BUT, YOU KNOW, ESPECIALLY IN THE DUTCH TOWN, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE IF WE IF WE GO BACK AND ACTUALLY LOOK AT THE THE THREE THINGS THAT THEY NEEDED TO, TO, TO SATISFY, I DON'T THINK THAT THIS ACTUALLY THIS WOULD ALTER THE ESSENTIAL CHARACTER OF THE NEIGHBORHOOD BECAUSE AS WE'VE BEEN NOTING, THESE ARE SMALLER HOMES IN THIS NEIGHBORHOOD. AND SOMETHING THIS LARGE WOULD BE ONE OF THE LARGER HOMES IN THE DUTCH TOWN NEIGHBORHOOD. AND I GET IT THAT PEOPLE TODAY WANT LARGER HOMES. THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT IT'S THAT A HOME OF THAT SIZE FITS IN DUTCH TOWN. THERE'S A LOT OF PLACES YOU CAN BUILD A HOME THAT SIZE IN STILLWATER. DUTCH TOWN MAY NOT BE THE WAY TO DO IT PLACE TO DO IT THERE, PARTICULARLY ON THE RIVER SIDE. YEAH. NOT. NOT NOT DUTCH TOWN ITSELF. THERE'S NOT A LOT OF BIG HOUSES AND THERE'S, THERE'S MAYBE A COUPLE AND WAY UP AT THE TOP, BUT YEAH, SOME,

[00:40:08]

SO THE HOUSE DIRECTLY WEST OF THIS LOT IS A I THINK IT'S A 4800 SQUARE FOOT HOME, RIGHT? I MEAN, THE BACK, THE RIGHT HERE. SO THAT'S A PRETTY LARGE HOME. IN, IN THE, THE LOT COVERAGE, THE THE LOT COVERAGE PIECE, I GUESS I WOULD ASK OR ADD IS THERE'S THERE'S AN OPTION FOR MITIGATION TO REDUCE THAT WE'VE USED IN THE PAST. AND I MEAN AT WHAT POINT I KNOW THERE'S BEEN IN THE PAST WHERE THERE'S BEEN APPROVAL OF SWIMMING POOLS AND DECKS THAT GO PAST 47, 49.6, I THINK. AND HOW DO YOU JUSTIFY A DECK OR A POOL VERSUS FIXING UP A LOT? THAT IS COMPLETELY AN EYESORE, RIGHT. SO THAT'S MY YES. THANKS. THANK YOU. AND WE'RE GOING TO HAVE DISCUSSION ABOUT A BUNCH OF THAT HERE LATER ON IN THE AGENDA. ONE OF THE LATER ITEMS THAT WE HAVE IS ITEM NINE LATER THIS EVENING. SO YEAH IF YOU. YEAH WE CAN. YEAH. NO I KNOW YOU MENTIONED RAIN BARRELS. IT'S NOT RAIN BARRELS, RAIN GARDENS. SO IT IS MITIGATION. SO THE QUESTION NUMBER ONE IS IS MITIGATING IMPERVIOUS SURFACE RUNOFF AN ACCEPTABLE APPROACH OR NOT IS WHAT I'D LIKE TO ASK. AND THAT'S GOING TO BE PART OF ITEM NINE LATER TONIGHT. YOU KNOW.

AND WE'VE BEEN KIND OF USING THAT. BUT I THINK THAT WE'RE STARTING TO SHY AWAY FROM IT.

OKAY. AND ALSO THERE'S ANOTHER POTENTIAL OPTION FOR YOUR CONSIDERATION. PAVERS I BELIEVE JOHNNY PAVERS ARE CONSIDERED PERVIOUS. CHAIR, COMMISSIONERS AND APPLICANT AT THIS TIME. WE HAVE NOT WE HAVE NOT ADOPTED A CHANGE TO CODE THAT WOULD CONSIDER PAVERS TO BE PERVIOUS.

THAT IS SOMETHING THAT WE'RE LOOKING AT AND MAYBE ADDRESSED LATER TONIGHT. BY THE TIME THAT ANY BUILDING PERMITS ARE PULLED FOR THIS PROJECT, IT'S LIKELY THAT SOME FORM OF CREDIT IS INTRODUCED FOR PERVIOUS PAVERS. BUT THAT'S NOT SOMETHING IN OUR CODE TODAY. OKAY. YEAH. BECAUSE RIGHT NOW IF WE MADE THE DRIVEWAY OUT OF PAVERS, IF THEY WERE PERVIOUS, EVEN HALF PERVIOUS, IT WOULD STILL MEET THE STANDARD THEN. SO THAT'S JUST ANOTHER POTENTIAL OPTION.

YEAH. AND YEAH. ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU. GREAT. THANK YOU. SO. YEAH. SO I YOU KNOW I GUESS WE'RE WE'RE STILL MISSING IT ON TWO OF THE THREE, YOU KNOW FINDINGS THAT WE NEED TO FIND FOR THIS IN MY OPINION. AND SO I YOU KNOW I WOULD GO WITH OPTION TWO THAT WE HAVE WHICH IS TO TABLE THE VARIANCES AND DENY THE THE LOT COVERAGE REQUEST. I AGREE THAT THE PRACTICAL DIFFICULTIES TEST HAS NOT BEEN MET. I WOULD ALSO POINT OUT THAT WE'VE BEEN PARTICULARLY. STRICT WHEN WE'VE SEEN OUR VARIANCE REQUESTS THAT HAVE TO DO WITH VACANT LOTS, SO I THINK THE IDEA IS THAT WHEN YOU HAVE A VACANT LOT, YOU SHOULD TRY AS MUCH AS YOU CAN TO AVOID THE REQUEST FOR ANY VARIANCES. SO. BUT BUT I AGREE WITH EVERYTHING THAT THE CHAIR HAS MENTIONED WITH RESPECT TO THIS PARTICULAR, THIS PARTICULAR REQUEST. AND I THINK THAT. YEAH I THINK OPTION EITHER OPTION TWO OR TABLING THE WHOLE MATTER UNTIL WE HAVE A REFINED DESIGN ON EVERYTHING WOULD MAKE SENSE TO ME. BUT EITHER WHICH WAY WOULD WORK TO OR OR FIVE. THAT SOUNDS LIKE YOU MAY BE REALLY CLOSE TO A MOTION THERE. ALL RIGHT, SO I JUST I'M JUST SUGGESTING OKAY, I WOULD MOVE THAT WE TABLE THE ENTIRE MATTER. TO OUR DECEMBER MEETING FOR FURTHER CONSIDERATION. AT THAT POINT, LOOKING AT IF THERE'S A POSSIBILITY OF A SMALLER, A SMALLER FOOTPRINT OF THE BUILDING, THAT WOULD REDUCE THE

[00:45:03]

YEAH. THOSE ARE THE DIRECTIONS. YEP. IF YOU NEED DIRECTIONS READ THE CODE. YEP. YEAH. THANK YOU. YOU'RE WELCOME. WHAT GOES ON. SO NEXT ITEM IS CASE 2025 050A CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT FOR

[Case No. CD2025-050]

THANK YOU, CHAIR AND COMMISSIONERS. NOW WE ARE GOING TO. EVALUATE A CUP FOR A DOG TRAINING FACILITY IN THE BPI DISTRICT AT 2000 INDUSTRIAL BOULEVARD. THIS IS IN THE BPI DISTRICT AND THE WEST STILLWATER BUSINESS PARK, THOUGH NO DESIGN REVIEW WILL BE REQUIRED, AS HAS NOT BEEN, I SUPPOSE, REQUIRED IN MANY YEARS FOR THE BUSINESS PARK. BUT THIS IS AN EXISTING STRUCTURE THAT HAS 11 OFFICE SUITES, AND ONE OF THOSE SUITES IS PROPOSED FOR USE AS A DOG TRAINING FACILITY WITH A BROAD TENANT MIX. THIS IS 1050 SQUARE FOOT SUITE, PRIMARILY WITH ONE ON ONE DOG TRAINING, WITH OWNERS OR HANDLERS PRESENT WITH SOME SMALL GROUP CLASSES IN THE EVENINGS. IN LINE WITH ALL OF THE PERFORMANCE STANDARDS FOR A DOG TRAINING FACILITY IN THIS DISTRICT, THERE WILL NOT BE ANY OVERNIGHT DOG BOARDING, AND THE APPLICANT IS ALSO NOT PROPOSING ANY OUTDOOR TRAINING ELEMENTS FOR. WE FEEL THAT THIS IS EXTREMELY STRAIGHTFORWARD. THE APPLICANT HAS PROVIDED US MATERIALS THAT SHOW THAT HE

[00:50:03]

IT DID, IT DID, IT DID. MR. PRESENTATION WAS WELL IN SOME OF THE SUPPLEMENTARY MATERIAL MENTIONS DAYCARE. OKAY. YEAH. LET'S WE CAN MAYBE WE GET THE APPLICANT TO. I'M HOPING THAT THEY WILL ANSWER MY QUESTION FOR ME. YEAH. WHY DON'T YOU COME FORWARD NAME AND ADDRESS FOR THE RECORD. AND THEN YEAH, THERE'S A BUTTON ON THERE THAT'S GOING TO TURN THAT ALL GREEN. THERE YOU GO. HI GUYS. EVERYONE THANK YOU FOR CONSIDERING MY APPLICATION.

APPRECIATE THAT. MY NAME IS JIM POWELL I LIVE AT 13833 OZARK AVENUE COURT NORTH IN STILLWATER. 55082 YEAH. SO REGARDING BOARDING AND DAYCARE, NO DAYCARE, NO MULTI DOG DAYCARE AND NO BOARDING. DAYCARE IS I'M THE OWNER OF THE TRAINER. AND WHEN THE DOGS ARE IN MY CARE WITHOUT THE ACTUAL DOG OWNER THERE I WOULD BE CONSIDERED THEIR TRAINER, THEIR HANDLER. SO AND THAT WOULD BE A PROVISION THAT WOULD BE, YOU KNOW, UNDER A WAIVER, A LEGAL WAIVER THAT THEY'RE ESSENTIALLY MAKING ME THE DOG'S HANDLER AND CAREGIVER AT THAT TIME. BUT THERE WILL BE 000 OVERNIGHT DOG BOARDING THERE. AND I HAVE NO INTENTIONS OF HAVING SOME GIGANTIC DOGGY DAYCARE GOING ON. THAT'S HONESTLY A MIND BLOWING TASK FOR A MULTI EMPLOYEE SITUATION. AND IT'S JUST GOING TO BE ME TRAINING, TRAINING THE DOGS OF STILLWATER TO BE BETTER CITIZENS OF THIS CITY. OKAY, OKAY, GREAT. WHY DON'T YOU IF YOU HAVE ANYTHING ELSE THAT YOU WISH TO ADD NOW, WOULD YOU KNOW, WHY DON'T WE JUST WE CAN JUST MOVE INTO THAT SECTION OF IT.

YEAH. SO VERY, VERY QUICKLY. I'VE BEEN TRAINING FOR ABOUT 11 YEARS. I'M A GRADUATE OF THE KAREN PRYOR ACADEMY DOG TRAINING SCHOOL COMPREHENSIVE PROGRAM, WHICH, BY THE WAY, IS ONE OF THE TOP THREE PROGRAMS IN THE REALLY WORLDWIDE. I'M A MEMBER OF THE APT ASSOCIATION OF PROFESSIONAL DOG TRAINERS, AND I'VE ALSO RECEIVED MY CERTIFICATION, CPD CERTIFICATION, PROFESSIONAL DOG TRAINERS KNOWLEDGE ASSESSED. AS YOU GUYS MAY OR MAY NOT KNOW, IF YOUR DOG PEOPLE DOG TRAINING HAS BECOME A LITTLE BIT OF A COTTAGE INDUSTRY IN THE LAST 10 TO 15 YEARS, SO THERE'S BEEN A REAL MOVE WITHIN THE PROFESSIONAL INDUSTRY TO MAKE SURE THAT WE GET CERTIFICATIONS HERE, THAT EVERYONE UNDERSTANDS EXACTLY HOW THEY'RE HOW THEY'RE TRAINING. I'M STRICTLY POSITIVE REINFORCEMENT. THERE IS STRICTLY POSITIVE REINFORCEMENT UNDER THE STANDARDS AND ETHICS THAT I'M REQUIRED TO ABIDE BY AS MEMBERS OF THOSE

[00:55:03]

IT'S TALKING ABOUT PRICING AND YOU KNOW DOGGIE DAYCARE FULL DAY $55 HALF DAY $35. PRIVATE BOARDING OFF SITE 70. SO I THINK THAT'S THE SOURCE OF THE MY APOLOGIES. YES, YOU'RE RIGHT.

ALL OF THIS IS JUST GENERAL INFORMATION BUT NOT APPLICABLE TO YOUR PARTICULAR PROPOSAL. IS THAT CORRECT? YEAH, EXACTLY. SO THE THREE CATEGORIES OF SERVICES THAT I WOULD PROVIDE WOULD BE ONE WOULD BE PRIVATE FOR THOSE PEOPLE WHO DON'T HAVE THE WHO CAN'T, WHO HAVE A SCHEDULING ISSUE, OR MAYBE THEY HAVE A DOG OR THEY, THEY WANT TO WORK WITH ME PRIVATELY.

THAT'S THAT'S PRETTY COMMON. THAT WOULD BE, SAY, BETWEEN THE HOURS OF LIKE 10 A.M. TO 4 P.M.

4 P.M. USUALLY ONE HOUR CLASSES, GROUP CLASSES WOULD START TYPICALLY AROUND 5 TO 6, SIX, 30 TO 7, 38 TO 9. SO THREE HOURS, THREE HOURS A DAY. OTHER TIMES, THERE MIGHT BE PEOPLE WHO HAVE A PUPPY WHO NEEDS BOTH TRAINING AND SOCIALIZATION. THAT'S WHERE MAYBE I MISS MISS LABELED THAT THAT'S WHAT I WOULD CALL DOGGY DAY CAMP. AND DAY CAMP IS ME TAKING ONE DOG AS THEIR HANDLER, ONE DOG TAKING THEM TO TO THE LOCATION, TRAINING THEM FOR AN HOUR, MAYBE PLAYING WITH THEM A LITTLE BIT, GIVING THEM SOME SOCIALIZATION SKILLS, MAYBE TAKING THEM TO A PETSMART OR A LOWE'S WHERE THEY'RE ALLOWED TO TO MINGLE AND SO FORTH IN SOCIAL ENVIRONMENTS, AND THEN DELIVERING THEM BACK HOME AND TEACHING THEIR OWNER WHAT I TAUGHT THE DOG. SO MY MY SINCERE APOLOGIES. DAYCARE SHOULD HAVE BEEN UNDER THE LABEL OF WHAT I WOULD CALL DAY CAMP. THAT'S ONE DOG, AND IT IS CERTAINLY NOT A CONGREGATION OF DOGS IN A DAYCARE. APOLOGIES FOR THAT, COMMISSIONER. GREAT. YEAH, I JUST WANT TO COMPLIMENT YOU ON THE APPLICATION. VERY THOUGHTFUL. OH. THANK YOU. PLEASURE. I WORKED IN ADVERTISING AND MARKETING FOR. THAT WAS MY FIRST CAREER. THIS IS MY SECOND FINAL CAREER. I'M.

I'VE REALLY ENJOYED IT. AND I CAN'T WAIT TO TO TAKE A STAB AT HAVING MY OWN COMPANY. THANK YOU SIR. GREAT. THANK YOU. OKAY. I'M SORRY. I HAVE ONE MORE QUESTION. I'M SO SORRY. NO, I JUST WANTED TO MAKE SURE I WASN'T. I'M GOING TO DOUBLE CHECK HERE. SO ALL OF YOUR CLASSES AND YOUR INDIVIDUAL EVENTS WILL EITHER BE OFFSITE OR INSIDE THE BUILDING. NOT, YOU KNOW, ARE YOU GOING TO BE ON THE SIDEWALKS OR ON THAT ROAD, LIKE, HOW ARE YOU GOING TO PLAN TO. YEAH, NO OUTSIDE TRAINING WHATSOEVER. ALL OF THE TRAINING WILL BE INSIDE. I KNOW THAT WE SEE DOG COURSES BEING TRAINED IN CITY PARKS AND OUT IN THE OPEN TYPICALLY, YOU KNOW, TYPICALLY IN OUR EXPERIENCE, FROM MY EXPERIENCE IS THAT JUST TO BE INSIDE OF A CONTROLLED AREA. SO THE SIMPLE ANSWER IS ALL OF THE TRAINING WILL BE INDOORS OR A RELIEF AREA OUTDOORS, BUT WE WON'T BE WALKING DOWN CITY STREETS. IT'S IN AN INDUSTRIAL AREA. THERE'S TRUCKS AND SO FORTH. TOO MUCH DISTRACTION FOR PUPPIES. WAY TOO MUCH DANGER. I'M NOT GOING TO PUT MY MY, MY PUPPIES AT RISK LIKE THAT. YEAH. SO THAT'S IT'S ALL INDOORS AND I AND TO JOHNNY'S POINT WHO'S BEEN EXTREMELY HELPFUL. THANK YOU SO MUCH JOHNNY. BECAUSE I'M COMPLETELY A NOVICE AT THIS. YOU KNOW, JUST WANTING TO MAKE SURE THAT THE DOGS COME FIRST.

ANY OTHER QUESTIONS? ANY OTHER QUESTIONS FOR THE APPLICANT OKAY. OKAY. GREAT. THANK YOU, THANK YOU. WITH THAT, I WILL OPEN THE PUBLIC HEARING. ANYONE WISHING TO TESTIFY ON THIS ITEM, ANYONE AT ALL. SEEING NO ONE, I WILL CLOSE THE PUBLIC HEARING COMMISSIONERS. WHAT DO WE THINK? DO WE HAVE A MOTION? I'M GOING TO MAKE A MOTION TO RECOMMEND APPROVAL TO COUNCIL FOR THE CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT AT 2000 INDUSTRIAL BOULEVARD FOR A DOG TRAINING BUSINESS, WITH THE ATTACHED CONDITIONS WHICH ARE SHALL PROVIDE ABIDE BY ALL TEN PERFORMANCE STANDARDS FOR DOG TRAINING FACILITY AT BPI, YADA YADA. AND A IF ANYTHING ELSE IS ADDED THAT STAFF WILL REVIEW.

SO I'LL MAKE THAT MOTION. I'VE GOT A COMMENT IF I GET A SECOND. DO WE HAVE A DO WE HAVE A SECOND FOR THAT MOTION. I'LL SECOND THAT. OKAY. SO WHAT DOES YADA YADA YADA. OH THE IT'S THE

[01:00:01]

WE PUT THAT TOGETHER IN 2000, REHABBED THE WHOLE THING. THAT'S A BUSY STREET. SO I WAS GLAD TO HEAR IT'S GOING TO BE INDOORS. WE'RE GOING TO MAINTAIN PUBLIC SAFETY IN THAT CORRIDOR THERE BECAUSE IT'S VERY BUSY WITH TRUCKS. WE HAVE TRUCKS COMING IN OUT OF OUR BUILDING ALL THE TIME. WHEN I STARTED MY BUSINESS THERE, SO I MAY ADD THE RELIEF AREA, I WE INTEND TO BE VERY, VERY SECURE. I WILL BE OUT THERE SUPERVISING BOTH THE OWNERS AND HANDLERS AND SO FORTH. SO YEAH, ACCIDENTS, IT'S SAFETY AND HYGIENE ARE NUMBER ONE. GOOD GOOD GOOD. ANY FURTHER DISCUSSION ON THIS ITEM? SEEING NONE. ALL THOSE IN FAVOR

[Case No. CD2025-051]

NEXT UP, CASE 2020 5-51A VARIANCE TO FRONT YARD SETBACK IN THE BPO ZONING DISTRICT FOR THE CONSTRUCTION OF A PFAS TREATMENT FACILITY AT UNADDRESSED PROPERTY IN THE CORNER OF TOWER DRIVE AND NORTHWESTERN AVENUE. MR. GOOTNICK, THANK YOU. THANK YOU, CHAIR. MEMBERS OF THE COMMISSION, AS YOU ALWAYS DO, WORD IT EXCELLENTLY. THIS IS THE SECOND PROPOSED PFAS TREATMENT FACILITY IN THE CITY. SO YOU WILL RECALL EARLIER THIS YEAR YOU DID A ZONING TEXT AMENDMENT TO THE PROS OR PARKS RECREATION OPEN SPACE DISTRICT TO EXCEED THE HEIGHT OR BUMP THE HEIGHT UP SO THAT THE WELL TEN PFAS TREATMENT FACILITY COULD BE CONSTRUCTED THERE AT THE HEIGHT REQUIRED TO FACILITATE THAT FACILITY. THIS IS AT WELL, NINE, AND I'M JUST GOING TO PULL THIS UP REAL QUICK. JUST TO CLARIFY, IT'S AT THE CORNER OF NORTHWESTERN AVE AND TOWER DRIVE. IT'LL BE PROPOSED TO BE LOCATED RIGHT THERE ABOUTS. SO DIFFERENT LOCATION, BUT SAME GENERAL REQUEST. IN THIS CASE THE PROPERTY IS ZONED BPO INSTEAD OF PARKS, RECREATION, OPEN SPACE. THE CITY IS CONSTRUCTING THE PFAS TREATMENT FACILITY FOR WELL NINE. THIS IS WELL PFAS LEVELS REMAIN WITHIN THE MPCA LIMITS FOR PFAS. THEY ARE APPROACHING THAT THRESHOLD. AND THIS IS THE CITY GETTING AHEAD OF WHAT COULD BE JUST GETTING AHEAD OF TREATMENT WHILE WE CAN, AND HAVE THE FUNDING FOR THAT.

THE SITE CONTAINS SEVERAL EXISTING UTILITY STRUCTURES. AS I'LL POINT OUT IN A MOMENT, THAT MAKE SITING THAT STRUCTURE A LITTLE BIT DIFFICULT. AND AFTER REVIEWING THREE ALTERNATIVES, OUR ENGINEERING AND PUBLIC WORKS DEPARTMENT HAVE KIND OF THE FINAL OPTION IS WHAT THEY'RE PRESENTING TO YOU AND WHAT THEY WHAT THEY FIND TO BE THE REASON FOR ANY REQUEST TO THE SETBACK, WHICH IS REQUIRED AT 40FT, IS INCREASED PIPING LENGTH, REDUCING NECESSARY MAINTENANCE ACCESS FOR THE TRUCKS THAT WOULD HAVE TO MAINTAIN NOT JUST THE PFAS FACILITY, BUT THE WELL HOUSE AND THE GENERATOR BUILDING. LESS DRIVEWAY MEANS LESS IMPERVIOUS SURFACE AND LESS MAINTENANCE. THE REQUEST ITSELF IS TO REDUCE THE FRONT YARD SETBACK FROM 40FT, WHICH IS REQUIRED TO 24.5FT. THE PURPOSE IS TO ENABLE THAT CONSTRUCTION OF PFAS FACILITY, TREATMENT FACILITY AND ALL OTHER ZONING COMPLIANCE IS COVERED IN THIS DISTRICT. FOR BPO. THE ONLY ONE YOU'LL NOTE I HAVE AS A CONDITION OF APPROVAL IS LANDSCAPING FOR TREES ALONG THE RIGHT OF WAY THAT'S CURRENTLY NOT THERE ON THIS SITE, AND SOMETHING WE'RE RECOMMENDING AS A CONDITION OF APPROVAL SHOULD THE COMMISSION MOVE FORWARD WITH THAT. HERE'S JUST A QUICK OVERVIEW OF THAT REQUEST. IT SHOWS THE TWO EXISTING STRUCTURES WHERE YOU HAVE THE WELLHOUSE AND THE GENERATOR BUILDING, I SHOULD SAY THREE, AS WELL AS THE WATER TOWER. THIS IS WHERE THE PROPOSED PFAS STRUCTURE WOULD BE RELOCATING IT UP HERE. OR AND ACTUALLY THERE WILL BE A I BELIEVE IT'S GOING TO BE ASSOCIATED WITH THE CELL TOWER ON OR A SMALL ANTENNA ON TOP OF THE WATER TOWER. THERE WILL BE SOME EQUIPMENT HERE. SO THIS AREA IS ALSO OUT OF THE QUESTION. YOU START RUNNING INTO REAR YARD SETBACKS, SIDE YARD, AND THE FURTHER YOU PUSH IT BACK, THE MORE ASPHALT WHICH IS BEING PROPOSED HERE WOULD BE REQUIRED TO ACCESS THAT SITE IN YOUR PACKET. AND THEN BEFORE YOU IS JUST A PROPOSAL. IT'S VERY SIMILAR TO WHAT WAS PROPOSED AT BENSON PARK OR WELTON. LOOKING AT THE ANALYSIS, WE DO FIND THAT THE SITE DOES HAVE CONSTRAINTS THAT ESTABLISH

[01:05:06]

SO WE'RE NOT GOING TO HEAR FROM THE APPLICANT AGAIN. SO WITH THAT I WILL OPEN THE PUBLIC HEARING. ANYONE HERE WISHING TO TESTIFY ON THIS ITEM? SEEING NONE, I WILL CLOSE THE PUBLIC HEARING COMMISSIONERS. WHAT DO WE THINK? I SUPPOSE WE GET A MOTION TO GET THE CONVERSATION GOING. MOTION WOULD BE WOULD BE APPRECIATED. I LIKE CLEAN WATER. I'M A MOTION TO APPROVE CASE 2025 051. IT SEEMS LIKE THE MOST REASONABLE SCENARIO THAT WE HAVE IN FRONT OF US TO ADDRESS THIS ISSUE. SO WE HAVE A MOTION. IS THERE A SECOND? I'LL SECOND. OKAY. AND WE HAVE A MOTION. AND A SECOND FURTHER CONVERSATION ON THIS. SO I THINK FOR ME, YOU KNOW, THE PRACTICAL DIFFICULTY GETS TO BE THE THE CRITICAL WATER INFRASTRUCTURE THAT WE HAVE HERE. WE CAN'T MOVE THE WATER TOWER. AND SO WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH THE THE HAND THAT WE HAVE 40FT IS A BIG SETBACK. AND I WAS CURIOUS ABOUT THAT. AND YOU KNOW, BUT THAT IS WHAT WE'RE IS WHAT WE'RE DEALING WITH. WE COULD MOVE THE WATER TOWER JUST BE ENORMOUSLY EXPENSIVE. YOU'RE RIGHT. I'M SORRY. TAXES WOULD GO UP. I DON'T DON'T WANT THOSE WATER BILLS. WE MOVE THE WATER, RIGHT? YEAH, RIGHT. SO I THINK, YOU KNOW, THE CONDITIONS I BELIEVE HAVE BEEN MET FOR THIS VARIANCE IN THIS LOCATION. SO ANY FURTHER DISCUSSION SEEING NONE. ALL THOSE IN FAVOR SIGNIFY BY SAYING AYE. AYE. THOSE OPPOSED. THAT MOTION CARRIES. NEXT UP IS CASE 2020

[Case No. CD2025-052]

[01:10:03]

SEEING NO ONE COMING FORWARD, I WILL CLOSE THE PUBLIC HEARING COMMISSIONERS. WHAT ARE WE THINK? DO WE HAVE A MOTION? SOMEBODY WANT TO THROW A MOTION OUT THERE? YEAH. TO GET THE CONVERSATION STARTED, I WILL MOVE TO RECOMMEND APPROVAL TO THE CITY COUNCIL OF THE ORDINANCE PROHIBITING VIRTUAL CURRENCY KIOSKS. OKAY. WE HAVE A MOTION. IS THERE A SECOND? I'LL SECOND. OKAY. SO NORTH AND STEINWALL FURTHER DISCUSSION ON ON THIS ITEM. COMMISSIONER NORTH, I DO HAVE A QUESTION FOR STAFF, WHICH I SHOULD HAVE ASKED EARLIER. CAN YOU REMIND ME IF THE CHIEF OF POLICE HAS WEIGHED IN ON THIS MATTER AS WELL, AND IF SO, WHAT THEIR OPINION IS? CHAIR, COMMISSIONER, THE CHIEF HAS WEIGHED IN. THEY'RE VERY SUPPORTIVE OF THIS.

I THINK THEY SUPPORT IT. WHEN IT WAS JUST AN ADJUSTMENT TO THE CITY CODE, AND KNOWING THAT THIS MAY BE EVEN A BETTER WAY TO ADDRESS IT. THEY'RE SUPPORTIVE OF THESE EFFORTS AS WELL. OKAY. IF YOU WOULD LIKE SOME COLOR. SURE. THIS IS BEING TAKEN UP. STILLWATER HAS LED THE WAY IN THE NATION ON THIS THIS BEING TAKEN UP IN SAINT PAUL, WASHINGTON, OTHER PLACES IN TALKING TO OUR POLICE, WE HAVE I THINK WE WERE AVERAGING SOMETHING LIKE $10,000 OF FRAUD A MONTH. OUR CAPTAIN HAS, ON MORE THAN ONE OCCASION, HAD TO PHYSICALLY RESTRAIN A GRANDMOTHER WHO IS 100% CONVINCED THAT IF SHE DOESN'T DUMP HER LIFE SAVINGS INTO THAT BOX, THAT HER CHILD OR GRANDCHILD IS GOING TO DIE, IT IS A CRUEL AND DISGUSTING FORM OF FRAUD. IN TALKING TO ONE OF THE BUSINESSES THAT HAD IT, THEY WERE DIRECTED BY A PARENT COMPANY TO HAVE IT IN THEIR. THEY GOT TO THE POINT WHERE THEY HAD TO SIGN ON THERE. THAT SAID, YOU CAN'T USE YOUR PHONE WHILE YOU'RE THERE IN FRONT OF IT. THEY TOLD ME THAT.

BASICALLY WHEN THEY SAW SOMEBODY APPROACH THE MACHINE, THEY WERE IMMEDIATELY CALLING 911. EVENTUALLY THAT JUST EVOLVED INTO UNPLUGGING THE MACHINE AND TELLING EVERYBODY THAT IT DOESN'T WORK. AND THEN ONE INDIVIDUAL IN THERE, AND I HAVE NO WAY TO VERIFY IF THIS IS TRUE OR NOT, TOLD ME DIRECTLY. WE I HAVE NEVER SEEN THIS NOT USED FOR SOMETHING THAT I THINK IS FRAUD. SO FOR ME, THIS IS A VERY EASY CHIP SHOT KIND OF THING. WE'RE A SMALL FISH IN WHAT IS GOING TO BE A BIGGER FIGHT FOR THIS, BUT I THINK THIS IS A GREAT ADDITION TO OUR ZONING CODE, OKAY. AND IF WE WANT TO ALLOW THEM TO TO DO SO, WE CAN DO SO WITH THE NORMAL VARIANCE PROCESS OKAY. ANY FURTHER DISCUSSION ON THIS ITEM. SEEING NONE. ALL THOSE IN FAVOR SIGNIFY BY SAYING AYE. AYE. THOSE OPPOSED. THAT CARRIES UNANIMOUSLY. THAT FINISHES UP OUR PUBLIC HEARINGS FOR THIS EVENING. WE HAVE NO UNFINISHED BUSINESS THAT WE WILL BE TAKING UP YET THIS EVENING, AND NO NEW BUSINESS. SO WE WILL MOVE TO

[IX. FYI – STAFF UPDATES]

OKAY. JUST TO REFRESH YOUR MEMORY, THIS CONVERSATION AROUND IMPERVIOUS SURFACE REQUIREMENTS GOES BACK TO BEFORE I STARTED, I KNOW THERE WERE A NUMBER OF VARIANCES THAT HAD BEEN REQUESTED, MOSTLY AROUND SWIMMING POOLS AND DECKS AND VARIOUS PARTS OF THE CITY.

AND, YOU KNOW, THEY CAME TO THE PLANNING COMMISSION AND YOU HAD CERTAIN OBLIGATIONS TO RECOMMEND DENIAL OR TO DENY THOSE. AND THEY WENT ON TO THE CITY COUNCIL, AND THEY FOUND THEMSELVES IN A POSITION OF SOMETIMES HAVING TO ACTUALLY APPROVE THOSE. AND SO GOT INTO THIS, THIS BACK AND FORTH ABOUT WHAT ARE THE SHOULD STANDARDS BE ADJUSTED, HOW DO WE HANDLE THESE? AND THAT IS WHAT WE'VE BEEN ASKED TO ADDRESS. SO I THINK WHEN THIS DIRECTION CAME TO STAFF EARLIER IN THE YEAR, THERE WERE THREE BROAD GOALS THAT HAVE ON MY SCREEN. THE FIRST IS TO REDUCE THE NUMBER OF IMPERVIOUS SURFACE VARIANCES THAT ARE REQUESTED. GENERALLY, IF WE CAN GET THAT NUMBER DOWN, THAT WOULD BE HELPFUL. THE SECOND IS WHEN WHEN THERE IS A RECOMMENDED APPROVAL FOR A OR, THERE IS APPROVAL OF AN IMPERVIOUS VARIANCE. WHAT ARE THE GENERAL CRITERIA YOU SHOULD BE USING TO TO MAKE THAT DETERMINATION. AND THEN THE THIRD IS IS THERE SOME KIND OF REGULAR APPROACH TO MITIGATION WHEN THERE IS ADDITIONAL IMPERVIOUS AREAS THAT ARE APPROVED THINGS? QUESTIONS AROUND HOW MUCH MITIGATION SHOULD BE REQUIRED, WHAT TOOLS SHOULD WE BE USING TO MITIGATE, AND THEN HOW WILL THAT

[01:15:04]

[01:20:06]

UNFORTUNATELY, IT WASN'T DOCUMENTED ANYWHERE. I MEAN, WE'VE LOOKED THE DNR WEIGHED IN AND THEY WERE COMFORTABLE WITH THIS, BUT IT'S JUST NOT WRAPPED UP INTO THE ACTUAL APPROVALS.

WE'RE ACTUALLY CONDUCTING SOME GIS ANALYSIS RIGHT NOW TO LOOK AT. IF YOU JUST LOOK AT ALL THE SHORELAND AREA AROUND THE LAKES AND THE CREEK, HOW MUCH IS ACTUALLY PROTECTED AS, AS GREEN SPACE. AND IF THERE'S ENOUGH SET ASIDE, MAYBE YOU HAVE A LITTLE BIT OF WIGGLE ROOM, KIND OF AT THE POLICY LEVEL, TO BE MORE COMFORTABLE ALLOWING VARIANCES WITHIN THAT, BECAUSE YOU KNOW THAT THERE'S ENOUGH GREEN SPACE SET ASIDE THAT WILL HELP HELP OFFSET THAT. IN CONTRAST, YOU LOOK AT LIBERTY LEGENDS, THERE'S REALLY VERY LITTLE PRESERVED OPEN SPACE IN THE SHORELAND. IT'S REALLY HARD TO DEFEND ALLOWING THAT IMPERVIOUS, IMPERVIOUS COVERAGE TO GO ABOVE THAT 25%. THE DNR RECOMMENDS, UNLESS THERE'S REALLY A TRUE PRACTICAL DIFFICULTY. SO IN THIS CASE, FOR THIS, THIS PUD, WE WOULD SUGGEST JUST STICKING WITH THE STANDARD, THE STANDARD APPROACH OF YOU HAVE TO PROVE THAT PRACTICAL DIFFICULTY FOR WHATEVER THE CONDITIONS ARE ON YOUR LOT IN ORDER TO GET THE VARIANCE. AND NOT HAVING AS FLEXIBLE OF AN APPROACH AS YOU MIGHT IN A MILLBROOK. AND SO COMING ON THE TAIL END OF ALL THAT, THE QUESTION I THINK CAME UP IN MAY, OKAY, IF WE IF WE ARE COMFORTABLE ALLOWING SOME VARIANCES AND REQUIRING SOME, SOME MITIGATION REQUIRED MITIGATION ON SITE TO DEAL WITH STORMWATER RUNOFF, HOW DO YOU ENSURE THAT THAT STAYS IN PLACE LONG TERM? AGAIN, MOST OF THE VARIANCES THAT ARE APPROVED OVER THE LAST YEAR OR EVEN LONGER, THERE'S SOME KIND OF STORMWATER MAINTENANCE THAT'S AGREEMENT THAT'S RECORDED AGAINST THE PROPERTY. THEY HAVE TO DO CERTAIN THINGS, WHETHER IT'S PERVIOUS PAVERS, WHETHER IT'S A RAIN GARDEN. AS WE'VE DISCUSSED, THOSE ARE ONLY AS GOOD AS THEY STAY IN GOOD CONDITION GOING FORWARD. IF YOU'RE GOING TO BE USING THOSE TO ABSORB RAINWATER AND HOLD IT, IF THEY GET FULL, IF THEY GET REMOVED LATER, THEN IT'S NOT DOING YOU ANY GOOD AND YOU HAVE THE CONDITIONS THAT CAUSE MORE RUNOFF. BUT THE SOLUTION ISN'T ON SITE. THE CHALLENGE IS IN TALKING WITH OUR ENGINEERING AND PUBLIC WORKS STAFF, HOW DO YOU A TRACK THOSE THINGS REALLY LONG TERM? WHO PAYS FOR THE INSPECTIONS? HOW DO YOU HOW DO YOU KIND OF MANAGE ALL OF THAT? YOU KNOW, THEIR COMMENT WAS, LOOK, IF YOU INSPECT IT RIGHT AFTER INSTALLATION, IT'S GOING TO BE GREAT. YOU'RE GOING TO ENSURE IT'S WORKING. EVEN IF YOU WAIT 3 TO 5 YEARS, IT'S PROBABLY CHANCES ARE REALLY GOOD IT'S STILL GOING TO BE WORKING PERFECTLY. WHAT YOU'RE REALLY CONCERNED ABOUT IS TEN PLUS YEARS OUT, WE JUST DON'T THINK WE HAVE THE CAPACITY TO BE ABLE TO TRACK AND ENSURE THAT SOMEONE YOU KNOW IS ABLE TO MAINTAIN IT THAT FAR OUT. YOU KNOW, YOU COULD GET AN ESCROW FROM THE APPLICANT WHEN THEY APPLY AND APPLY THAT, HOLD IT FOR A CERTAIN NUMBER OF YEARS. ONCE YOU GET TO 3 TO 5 YEARS, THAT STARTS TO BE A LONG TIME TO HOLD THAT MONEY, TO HAVE AN INDEPENDENT, WHETHER IT'S WSB OR SOME OTHER ENGINEERING FIRM, COME OUT AND LOOK AT IT. BUT EVEN THEN YOU'RE ONLY, YOU KNOW, FIVE YEARS OUT. WHAT HAPPENS BEYOND THAT? SOMEONE POINTED OUT IF A IF A PROPERTY GETS SOLD IN THE MEANTIME, YOU LOSE THAT ESCROW BECAUSE THAT GOES AWAY. SO SO IT'S REALLY TOUGH TO HAVE THAT LONG TERM ENFORCEMENT, YOU KNOW, WE CAN DO WHAT WE CAN. BUT BUT THE REALITY IS WE JUST DON'T HAVE THE MANPOWER OR THE FUNDS

[01:25:02]

AGAIN, JUST LOOKING FOR FEEDBACK AND THOUGHTS ON SOME OF THIS THAT WE CAN CONTINUE TO REFINE. BEFORE WE COME BACK TO YOU WITH A PROPOSED TOTAL PACKAGE SOLUTION. SO DISCUSSION ON THIS ITEM. WHAT DO FOLKS THINK? WITH RESPECT TO MILLBROOK OR SOME OF THE OTHER PUDS? HOW DO WE KNOW THAT THE GREEN SPACE SHOWN OR IF WE DECIDE, OH, THERE'S PLENTY OF GREEN SPACE AND PLENTY OF PLACES FOR INFILTRATION AT THIS PARTICULAR DEVELOPMENT, WHAT'S THE VEHICLE THAT PROTECTS THAT GREEN SPACE FROM DEVELOPMENT IN THE FUTURE? SURE. I MEAN, IF YOU LOOK AT MILLBROOK NOW, A LOT OF THE GREEN SPACES WE'RE IDENTIFYING IS EITHER CITY OWNED OR IT'S PROTECTED THROUGH THROUGH EASEMENTS AND THINGS. SO WE KNOW THAT WE'RE NOT GOING TO, YOU KNOW, TAKE A PARK AND AND SELL IT AND DEVELOP IT. THE STORMWATER PONDS AND THOSE GREEN SPACES ARE THERE TO HELP ABSORB THE RAINWATER. SO THOSE ARE PROTECTED. BUT WE'RE NOT CONSIDERING IN THAT GREEN SPACE IS AREA THAT'S ON PRIVATE LAND. YOU KNOW, YOUR YOUR BACKYARD BECAUSE WE'RE GOING TO SAY THERE'S A POSSIBILITY THAT COULD BE DEVELOPED OR, OR FILLED IN AT SOME POINT. SO WE'RE JUST LOOKING AT BALANCING WHAT IS THE NON PRIVATELY HELD LAND THAT THAT IS YOU KNOW GREEN PARK TURF WHATEVER VERSUS THE PRIVATE SIDE OF THINGS. AND WHAT'S THAT RATIO. AND IS THERE ENOUGH CUSHION THERE FOR IN THE MILLBROOK AREA RIGHT NOW I CAN'T REMEMBER WHETHER WE HAVE ANY. I KNOW WE HAVE THE 25% IN THE SHORELAND OVERLAY, BUT I DON'T KNOW THAT. DO WE HAVE AS PART OF THE PUD ANY FURTHER? WE DON'T. AND THAT'S KIND OF A SECONDARY QUESTION FOR US AS WE UPDATE OUR ZONING DISTRICTS, WHICH, YOU KNOW, WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT DOING. IT'D BE GOOD TO GET SOME, SOME, SOME IMPERVIOUS CAP ON THE REST OF THE DISTRICT, BECAUSE RIGHT NOW IT IS KIND OF WIDE OPEN. YOU DON'T HAVE TO APPLY FOR A VARIANCE BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT REALLY RESTRICTED. YOU CAN DO PRETTY MUCH WHATEVER YOU WANT TO DO 100% ON YOUR LOT SUPPORT THAT. SO SO WE DEFINITELY NEED TO GET SOMETHING IN PLACE RIGHT NOW. THE SHORELINE IS THE ONE THAT WE'RE MOST CONCERNED ABOUT. THAT'S WHERE THE VARIANCE REQUESTS ARE COMING. BUT IT IS GOING TO BE BOTH THOSE THINGS TOGETHER AND NOT JUST HERE BUT ALSO IN IN LIBERTY AND LEGENDS. YEAH. OKAY. TO ME, JUST FROM LIKE THIS IS A VERY PRACTICAL PERSPECTIVE. I AM CONCERNED ABOUT PULLING ONE LIKE MILLBROOK, WHICH, YOU KNOW, I APPRECIATE THE PICTURE LOOKING SIGNIFICANTLY DIFFERENT THAN LIBERTY AND LEGENDS, BUT AS LIKE AN OUTSIDER BEING LIKE, OKAY, SO THIS ONE, THIS ONE COMMUNITY WHICH IS STILL IN TR DISTRICT HAS DIFFERENT RULES THAN A DIFFERENT COMMUNITY THAT'S IN TR DISTRICT. I FEEL LIKE IT MAKES SENSE TO EITHER PULL THAT COMMUNITY BECAUSE IT'S SO DIFFERENT FROM TR DISTRICT INTO A DIFFERENT DISTRICT. WHAT DEPENDING ON WHAT THAT LOOKS LIKE OR I THINK THAT TO ME, IT ALMOST SEEMS LIKE IT'S ON THE APPLICANT TO EXPLAIN THAT IN THEIR APPLICATION AND TO CONTINUE GOING THROUGH THE VARIANCE PROCESS, RATHER THAN HAVING ONE COMMUNITY HAVE DIFFERENT RULES WITHIN A DISTRICT. YEAH, THAT'S A GOOD POINT. AND IT'S SOMETHING THAT WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT AS STAFF. YOU KNOW, EACH OF BOTH OF THESE DEVELOPMENTS ARE ARE TR ZONING DISTRICT. BUT THERE WERE INDIVIDUAL PUDS THAT CREATED AND HAD SPECIAL RULES. AND SO YOU COULD GO IN AND KIND OF DO SOME AMENDMENTS AND TARGET AND SAY THE RULES FOR THIS DISTRICT ARE DIFFERENT AND WE COULD PUT THOSE IN AND RECORD THEM WITH THAT PUD BECAUSE OF THE CONDITIONS HERE. AND THE RULES DOWN HERE ARE GOING TO BE DIFFERENT BECAUSE OF THE WAY IT WAS DESIGNED. YOU KNOW, GOING FORWARD, IF A PUD WERE TO COME IN, WE'D BE MUCH MORE AWARE AND CAPTURE THAT UPFRONT AND MEMORIALIZE IT. WE KIND OF DOING IT ON THE BACK END NOW, BUT JUST BECAUSE OF THE SAME ZONING DISTRICT, THE FACT THERE

[01:30:04]

WE SET SOMETHING IN PLACE. WE MAKE DECISIONS ON ALL THESE INDIVIDUAL PARCELS BASED ON THE EXPECTATION OF BROADER IMPERVIOUS SURFACE OUTSIDE OF THOSE HOME SITES. AND THEN SOMETHING HAPPENS AND WE'RE KIND OF SOL AT THAT POINT. AND. SO THAT THAT'S A CONCERN I WOULD HAVE WITH HAVING MILLBROOK BE AN OUTSIDER. I THINK AS WE CONTINUE TO HAVE INFILL, AS THAT DEMAND CONTINUES TO INCREASE, WE'LL FIND OURSELVES IN A POSITION WHERE THOSE PARCELS MAY END UP BEING DEVELOPED. ONE OF OUR INTENTIONS ARE RIGHT NOW. YOU KNOW, AND I THINK LOOKING THOUGH AT AT MILLBROOK, THAT LAND AROUND THERE HASN'T BEEN PLATTED. SO BEFORE ANYBODY'S GOING TO BE ALLOWED TO GET A BUILDING PERMIT TO PUT ANYTHING IN THERE, THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE TO GET IT PLATTED. AND THAT IS SOMETHING THAT'S DONE BY US. US IN THE COUNCIL. AND SO, YOU KNOW, THERE'S NOT GOING TO BE ANY WAY THAT THEY'RE GOING TO BE ABLE TO SAY, OH, WE'RE GOING TO PUT THIS NEW EXTENSION OF MORE HOUSES INTO ALL THAT GREEN AREA. BECAUSE THEY WOULD NEED SO MANY APPROVALS FROM THE CITY AND THE AND THE PLANNING COMMISSION, YOU KNOW, AND SO IF WE MEMORIALIZE IT SO THAT 20 YEARS FROM NOW, WHEN SOMEBODY COMES FORWARD WITH THAT PLAN TO DO THAT, THEY'LL BE ABLE TO LOOK AT THE LOOK AT THE RECORD AND SAY IN 2025, THEY SAID, YOU GET TO DO THIS EXTRA OVER THE 25% BECAUSE YOU HAVE ALL THIS GREEN SPACE. AND SO NOW TO TAKE THAT GREEN SPACE AWAY, WE GOT TO FIND A NEW WAY TO DO THAT.

LEAVE THAT PROBLEM FOR THEM. IT'S WORTH I WAS THE FIRST PRESIDENT OF THE MILLBROOK HOA, SO I WAS THE ONE THAT HAD TO ACCEPT THE. RETAINING PONDS FROM LENNAR. MY MEMORY IS THERE'S 7 OR 9 RETAINING PONDS WITHIN THAT GREEN SPACE THERE, IN ADDITION TO SOUTH TWIN LAKE THAT HAVE BEEN INTENTIONALLY CUT DEEP FOR THE MOST PART WITH THE SOUTH ONE IS WHAT THEY CONSIDER A DRY RETAINING POND. SO IT'S A LITTLE BIT MORE SHALLOW. NONE OF THOSE ARE BUILDABLE IN TO MY EYE AT THAT POINT. I MEAN, YOU'D HAVE TO GET A ROAD IN THERE ANYWAY FOR THAT, SO I THINK IT'S ALL PRETTY WELL BUTTONED DOWN ON THAT FRONT. IT'S NOT LIKE THAT'S REALLY BUILDABLE SPACE BACK THERE. IT'S REALLY NOT. THE BROWNS CREEK RUNS THE SOUTH WHERE YOU SEE THE 96 SIGN ON THERE. IT STARTS RIGHT ABOUT THERE AND CUTS DOWN ALONG THE DARK GREEN SPACE BETWEEN THE MILLBROOK HOUSES AND THE MORE RECTANGULAR ONES ON OUT THE OTHER SIDE. SO IT'S REALLY NOT. I FEASIBLE. YEAH, I DID HAVE A QUESTION ON RA. I MAY HAVE LET

[01:35:09]

SO I'M WONDERING IF THERE'S LIKE A LESSER THAN KIND OF PROVISION WE CAN PUT IN THERE TO SAY, IF YOU'RE GOING TO GO BELOW WHAT YOU'D BE AT IF YOU WERE A 10,000 LOT, WE'RE JUST GOING TO TAKE THE 3000. AND BEST OF LUCK TO YOU. YEAH, YEAH, I THINK THERE'S CERTAINLY DIFFERENT VARIATIONS. IT'S THAT BALANCE OF ARE YOU GETTING THE RESULT YOU WANT WITH HOW COMPLICATED IS IT TO EXPLAIN IT TO SOMEONE AND IMPLEMENT IT? BUT I THINK WE CAN WORK WITH THOSE AND TRY TO FIND SOMETHING THAT ACCOMPLISHES BEST TO BOTH OF OUR ABILITIES. MAYBE SAY YOU CAN BUILD IT UP TO A 3000 SQUARE FOOT. YOU KNOW, ANYTHING THAT'S 7500 TO 10,000. YOU CAN BUILD A 3000 SQUARE FOOT HOUSE. ANYTHING UNDER 7500 IS A 2500 SQUARE FOOT HOUSE OR A SIMPLE BAND-AID. YEAH, I MEANT TO SAY THAT I COMPLETELY LOVE WHAT JOHN SAID. BECAUSE COMMISSIONER NORRIS SAID BECAUSE. YEAH, I DON'T WANT TO GET OVERLY COMPLICATED IN THIS. WE HAVE AN OVERLY COMPLICATED ZONING CODE TO BEGIN WITH. BUT I THINK THE IDEA IS, IF YOU'RE COMFORTABLE SAYING THAT THERE SHOULD BE SOME ACCOMMODATION OF THOSE SUBSTANDARD LOTS AND WE CAN MAKE SOME ADJUSTMENTS, THAT'S THE STARTING POINT. AND WE CAN PLAY WITH THE NUMBERS AND COME BACK TO YOU WITH SAYING, WE THINK THIS IS THE REASONABLE WAY TO TO GO ABOUT CALCULATING THAT. I THINK IT'S SOMETHING WORTH EXPLORING FOR SURE, BECAUSE A LOT OF TIMES THIS IS NOT IT'S REALLY DIFFICULT FOR HOMEOWNERS TO TRY TO ADDRESS THESE THINGS AND GIVE THEM SOME LEEWAY. HERE WOULD BE THE RIGHT IDEA TO START. YEAH, ABSOLUTELY. I THINK KNOWING TO WHEN DECIDING WHAT THAT NUMBER IS FOR SUBSTANDARD LOTS. I AGREE WITH YOU THAT IT'S REALLY HARD WHEN THERE ARE. THERE IS ALSO KNOWING HOW MANY SUBSTANDARD LOTS WE HAVE TO PICK THAT NUMBER, BECAUSE THAT'S ALSO WHAT I AM USUALLY VERY CONCERNED ABOUT, IS BECAUSE IT'S A SERIES OF ONE WELL-MEANING CHOICE. AND THEN THE BAD THING THAT HAPPENS AFTER ONE, TOO MANY OF THOSE I ENVISION COMING BACK TO YOU WITH A LOT OF DATA. ONCE WE ANALYZE THIS AND BEING ABLE TO BREAK IT OUT AND THEN BASE THE CODE CHANGES ON THE DATA OF WHAT'S GOING ON IN THE CITY. YEAH, YEAH. AND I YOU KNOW, I THINK THE WAY THAT I PRESENTED IT WHEN I WAS TALKING WITH MR. GOOTNICK EARLIER TODAY WAS KIND OF I LIKE THE FIRST 75% OF THIS.

BUT WHEN WE GET DOWN INTO THAT HOLE, HOW DO WE DO ENFORCEMENT ON THE, YOU KNOW, ALLOWING SOMEBODY TO PUT IN TO MITIGATE FOR THEIR RAINWATER AND ALL OF THAT? I THINK WE DON'T HAVE A GOOD SOLUTION ON THAT NECESSARILY TO DO ANYTHING WITH THAT. AND SO I THINK WHAT IT'S PROBABLY GOING TO END UP TAKING IS US BEING A, YOU KNOW, A LITTLE MORE HARSH UP HERE AND BEING MORE WILLING TO SAY NO IF WE DON'T HAVE PRACTICAL DIFFICULTIES, IF WE DON'T HAVE SOMETHING, YOU KNOW, NOT JUST ALLOWING IT TO HAPPEN, BUT SO HAVE A LITTLE BIT MORE FLEXIBILITY UP FRONT. BUT WHEN WE GET DOWN TO THE END, YOU KNOW, RIGHT. CODES, CODE AND I ALSO. YEAH. AND I ALSO LIKE AGAIN THAT 10,000 WHATEVER WHATEVER SIZING WE PUT THAT CAP ON. I LIKE IT BECAUSE IT ALLOWS US AN EASY WAY TO EXPLAIN WHY PRECEDENT HAPPENED. AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT HAS GOTTEN US INTO TROUBLE IN THE PAST. WHERE TO YOUR POINT, WE ALLOW SOMETHING THAT 36% INSTEAD OF 35% OR WHATEVER IT IS, AND THERE IS A REASON, BECAUSE IT WAS A 9000, YOU KNOW, LIKE WHATEVER IT IS, AND THE FACT THAT WE CAN DOCUMENT THAT, HAVE THAT WRITTEN IN STONE BEFOREHAND, I THINK HELPS, JUST HELPS TO IT JUST HELPS. YEAH. SO WHAT IS THE OH, I WANT I WANT TO SAY ONE THING MORE ABOUT MILLBROOK, AND THEN I WANT TO ASK SOME QUESTIONS ABOUT THE RB DISTRICT. SO. I USED TO BE AN ATTORNEY AT THE MINNESOTA LAND TRUST. AND WE DID CONSERVATION EASEMENTS TO PROTECT OPEN, OPEN SPACE. AND THEY'RE LEGALLY ENFORCEABLE DOCUMENT NOW. SO I WOULD. SO THAT'S MY BASELINE THINKING. SO WHEN I HEAR THAT OH DON'T WORRY.

NO ONE COULD EVER BUILD HERE OR OH DON'T WORRY. YOU KNOW IT'S NOT PRACTICAL OR ET CETERA. ET CETERA. OR DON'T WORRY, IT'S A CITY PARK. THE CITY WOULD NEVER DISPOSE OF A PARK. ALL OF THOSE

[01:40:07]

SO THE BIG QUESTION I'VE HAD OVER MY HEAD THIS ENTIRE TIME IS HOW MUCH OF THIS IS REALLY GOING TO BE IN OUR CONTROL IN FIVE YEARS ANYWAY? SO I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S A AN ARGUMENT IN FAVOR OF GOING AFTER A PUD SOLUTION WITH WITH THIS OR NOT, BUT AT THIS POINT IN TIME FEELS LIKE THE RIGHT THING. I AGREE WITH EVERYTHING YOU SAID. YEAH. I MEAN, WE CAN ONLY DEAL WITH WHAT WE HAVE IN FRONT OF US, NOT WHAT MIGHT HAPPEN IN THE FUTURE, I GUESS. SO WITH RESPECT TO THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN RA AND RB. I'VE BEEN ON THIS BOARD FOR A WHILE AND RB ALWAYS CONFUSES ME. THIS, YOU KNOW, SHIFTING FROM, YOU KNOW, 25% BETWEEN BUILDING COVERAGE AND 25% OTHER COVERAGE. AND OF COURSE, YOU KNOW, MANY OF OUR REQUESTS ARE CAN'T I JUST, YOU KNOW, SWAP THEM AROUND. DO WE KNOW WHY WE HAVE THIS? ODD SYSTEM FOR RB CHAIR COMMISSIONERS? OUR BEST GUESS IS IT'S KIND OF DESIGN REVIEW BAKED INTO CODE. SO JUST LIKE WE HAVE THE FRONT YARD SETBACK FOR A GARAGE BEING INTENTIONALLY PLACED BEHIND THE LEADING EDGE OF THE HOME IN THIS DISTRICT, WE'RE TRYING TO CONTROL THE MASSING OF A STRUCTURE ON A SITE. WHAT WE HAVE FOUND WITH JOHNNY'S RECENT ANALYSIS OF JUST THE LAST FOUR YEARS AND WHAT I THINK WE CAN GUESS, A LOT OF OUR EXISTING PROPERTIES AREN'T BUILT THAT WAY. SO YOU CAN EVEN LOOK AT A HISTORIC PROPERTY NOW, AND USUALLY THERE IS JUST MORE THAN 50% OR 25% OF THAT. THAT'S GOING TO BE STRUCTURE IN THIS HISTORIC OR RB DISTRICT. THAT'S OUR BEST GUESS. I THINK WHAT WE'RE PROPOSING HERE KIND OF DOES SOMETHING VERY SIMILAR. IT JUST ALLOWS FOR A LITTLE BIT MORE FLEXIBILITY AND THEREFORE A LITTLE LESS REVIEW TIME FROM BOTH STAFF AND PLANNING COMMISSION, MOSTLY PLANNING COMMISSION. I WOULD JUST ADD THAT AS WE UPDATE ZONING DISTRICTS, WE DON'T HAVE TO KEEP THIS UNIQUE 2525 SPLIT. WE COULD GO TO JUST A NUMBER SIMILAR TO RA. TREAT IT LIKE RA, IT COULD BE 40% OR WHATEVER IT IS, AND WE COULD PICK A NUMBER AS WE REDO THAT DISTRICT. THAT'S A LITTLE WAYS OUT. SO THIS YOU KNOW, IT'S A QUESTION, SHOULD WE BE MAKING THIS KIND OF SMALL STEP FORWARD AND FIX IT ALL LATER, OR SHOULD WE JUST WAIT AND DO IT IN ONE BIG, ONE BIG CHUNK. SO THAT'S SOMETHING TO CONSIDER AS WELL. SO OUR A AND RB THAT AND TR ENCOMPASS MOST OF OUR RESIDENTIAL ZONING DISTRICTS VAST MAJORITY. YEAH. AND RB IS MOST OF THE HISTORIC DISTRICT. YEAH OKAY. IF I COULD FURTHER ADD JUST TO WHY I BELIEVE THAT THIS PARTICULAR DISTRICT HAS THESE TWO BUCKETS, AND SPEAKING TO BEN'S COMMENT THAT THE. THE NEIGHBORHOOD CONSERVATION DISTRICT STANDARD IS FOR A GARAGE TO BE SET BACK FROM THE FRONT OF THE HOME. QUITE A FEW HOMES IN THE RB DISTRICT HAVE DETACHED GARAGE IN THE REAR YARD AND THUS, WITHOUT BEING A COMMUNITY WITH ALLEYS, NECESSITATE A REALLY LONG, NARROW DRIVEWAY TO ACCESS IT. SO IT WAS A WAY TO OFFER HOMEOWNERS RELIEF TO LOT COVERAGE TO ACCOMMODATE THE NECESSARY DRIVEWAYS, WHICH EAT

[01:45:05]

[01:50:04]

AND THE PROBLEM GETS TO BE IS FINDING, IS THAT GOING TO BE ENOUGH TO HIRE A FULL TIME STAFF? OR HOW DOES THE CITY OF STILLWATER JUST, YOU KNOW, HOW MUCH OF A FTE DO YOU NEED TO JUST INSPECT HOW MANY DRONES? YEAH. WELL, AND THEN, YOU KNOW, THE BURDEN OF ENFORCEMENT, I THINK IS SIGNIFICANT. SO YEAH, IT'S MAYBE JUST BETTER FOR US TO SAY UP FRONT. NO, I THINK SO.

IT MIGHT BE I THINK THAT I MEAN, FROM A GOVERNMENT PERSPECTIVE, I THINK THAT THIS, THIS INDEPENDENT CONTRACTOR 3 TO 5 YEAR THING, LIKE WE ALSO AREN'T GOING TO ENFORCE THAT. LIKE, LIKE THERE'S NO WAY THAT'S GOING TO FALL THROUGH THE CRACKS LIKE THE CRACKS. AND SO THAT'S WHAT I'M CONCERNED ABOUT. BUT I WONDER IF LIKE AN AUDITING SYSTEM EVERY SO OFTEN, ESPECIALLY IF THERE'S SOME SORT OF FEE ON THE FRONT END OR SOME SORT OF, YOU KNOW, IT'S FUNDED BY A FEE ON THE FRONT END AND, OR, YOU KNOW, IF YOU FIND SOMETHING ON THE AUDIT, IT'S PAID FOR ON THE BACK END, THAT MIGHT BE A PLACE TO WORK IT INTO OUR ROAD PROJECT PLAN OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT, WHERE WE'RE, YOU KNOW, NO, WE'RE HITTING ALL AREAS ONCE EVERY. I MEAN, OUR ROADS ARE SET TO ONCE EVERY 30 YEARS. THEY SHOULD GET TOUCHED. SO IT'S A IT'S A DIFFERENT TIME FRAME THAN WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT FOR SURE. BUT. OH, SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

YOU KNOW, I MEAN THERE'S AREN'T THERE TWO AREN'T THERE TWO THINGS THAT WE'RE TRYING TO GRAPPLE WITH? I MEAN, TO YOUR POINT EARLIER, YOU KNOW, WE'RE TRYING TO CONTROL MASSING AND HUGE, YOU KNOW, CONSTRUCTION, YOU KNOW, IN RESIDENTIAL, PARTICULARLY IN RESIDENTIAL AREAS. BUT THEN WE'RE ALSO, YOU KNOW, TRYING TO ACCOMMODATE OR FIX THE ENVIRONMENTAL ISSUE. SO I THINK THE. YOU KNOW. WE COULD BE MORE UPFRONT, I THINK, IN OUR ZONING CODE ABOUT, YOU KNOW, THE MASSING ISSUE. AND WE MAY WANT TO CONSIDER MORE OF A MACRO SOLUTION TO THE ENVIRONMENTAL. SO. THIS IS LIKE TOTALLY OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD. BUT OH, YOU WANT TO YOU KNOW, INSTEAD OF DOING A RAIN GARDEN ON YOUR PROPERTY, YOU KNOW, DO IT LIKE A PARK DEDICATION THING, YOU KNOW. WELL, THAT'S, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE GOING TO CONTRIBUTE TO A RAIN GARDEN ELSEWHERE, YOU KNOW, IN THAT WATERSHED, FOR EXAMPLE. SO THAT WOULD, YOU KNOW, WE COULD CONTROL THAT. WE COULD WATCH WHAT'S GOING ON AT A. PUBLIC RAIN GARDEN, AS IT WERE. WE COULD STILL THEORETICALLY ACHIEVE THE ENVIRONMENTAL ADVANTAGE THAT THAT WE WANT.

AND THEN WE COULD, YOU KNOW, COLLECT THAT FEE FROM THE HOMEOWNER OR FROM THE APPLICANT AT AT THE TIME AND MAKE SURE THAT IT IS, IN FACT, APPLIED TO THE PUBLIC PROJECT, WHICH WOULD BE A RAIN GARDEN OR SOME SORT OF MITIGATION. MEASURE THAT HELPS TREAT THE GROUNDWATER RATHER THAN TRYING TO ENFORCE IT ON A LOT BY LOT BASIS. I LOVE THAT IDEA. I THINK WE KICKED SOMETHING SIMILAR AROUND AND I'M RACKING MY BRAIN TRYING TO REMEMBER, BUT I WANT TO SAY THERE'S A SUPREME COURT RULING FOUR YEARS AGO AROUND PARK DEDICATION FEES THAT WE WOULD

[01:55:02]

YOU WANT, YOU KNOW, YOU WANT A POOL AT YOUR, AT IN YOUR BACKYARD AND YOU'RE GOING TO EXCEED THE INFILTRATION RATIO. BUT WE'RE GOING TO OFFSET THAT WITH AN ENVIRONMENTAL. AND ACTUALLY, YOU KNOW, THE MONEY DOESN'T GO INTO OUR GENERAL FUND, BUT WE'RE ACTUALLY GOING TO DO IT. YOU KNOW THAT I THINK IS HELPFUL I THINK THERE HAVE BEEN MAYBE IT WAS WOODBURY OR SOMEBODY. THEY WERE JUST COLLECTING A LOT OF MONEY. YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT WAS AT THE HEART OF IT WAS THEY IT WAS THEY WEREN'T REALLY DOING ANYTHING WITH IT. ONE OF THOSE ONES THAT MAKE ME WONDER WHY ARBITRARY AND CAPRICIOUS ARE ALWAYS HELD TOGETHER. IS IT OKAY TO BE ARBITRARY BUT NOT CAPRICIOUS? CAN YOU BE CAPRICIOUS WITHOUT BEING ARBITRARY? YES, OF COURSE. THESE ARE THINGS THAT KEEP ME UP AT NIGHT. OKAY, WELL THEN KEEP IT SIMPLE. SCENARIO TWO I KNOW ONE OF THE CITY. THEY DO A SPECIAL PROJECT EVERY FEW, 4 OR 5 YEARS AND GO DOWN THROUGH THE REVIEWS OF SOMETHING IN THE CITY TO IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE A WE HAVE TO MAINTAIN THIS HOUSE IS NOW THREE YEARS POST APPROVAL. NOW GO VISIT THEM. IT COULD JUST BE BAKED INTO SOME LARGER SUITE. JUST JUST A PROJECT. YOU HIRE A GROUP FOR FOUR MONTHS TO GO AROUND AND DO THE THINGS EASIER TO MANAGE, AND KEEPS IT SIMPLE THEN. YEAH, BUT GETTING FEES TOWARDS THAT, THAT'S A COMPLETELY REASONABLE THING. IF THEY'RE GETTING SOMETHING FROM THE CITY, AN ACCOMMODATION, YOU HAVE TO HELP ADDRESS THAT ACCOMMODATION FROM THE CITY'S PERSPECTIVE OF WHAT WE HAVE TO DO TO MAKE SURE THAT EVERYBODY IS GETTING THIS FAIR TREATMENT, RIGHT. YEP, YEP. SO IF I WANT MY RAIN GARDEN, I FILLED IT IN AND SAID, WELL, I PUT IN SOME SOMETHING ELSE HERE. CAN YOU DO THAT? THEN I'M OUT OF COMPLIANCE WITH WHAT I WAS APPROVED. SO I SWITCHED WITH MY IMPERVIOUS. BUT I THINK WHAT WE'RE SAYING. BUT BUT BUT IT WOULDN'T NECESSARILY BE OUT OF FROM WHAT WE'VE APPROVED ON ANY OF THESE SO FAR. WE BASICALLY JUST SAY YOU NEED TO MITIGATE X. YEP. EXACTLY. YOU KNOW, YOU NEED TO THIS PERCENT. AND SO YEAH, IF YOU DO THAT WITH A RAIN GARDEN YOU DO THAT WITH RAIN BARRELS. YOU DO THAT WITH, YOU KNOW, AS LONG AS WE'RE FLEXIBLE WHATEVER VERSUS BEING VERY SPECIFIED. YEAH. YEAH. IS THIS HELPFUL OKAY. YEAH. WE. FEEL LIKE WE'RE ALL I SUPPOSE THERE'S THAT. WE'RE LIKE, YOU GUYS ALL WANT TO GO HOME AND WE'RE SITTING HERE CHATTING ABOUT THIS STUFF. OH, HERE'S ANOTHER IDEA. WELL I'M NOT NO. YOU KNOW, IN TERMS OF THE QUESTIONS JUST FOR CLARITY. SO I DO AGREE, I WOULD SAY YES TO NUMBER ONE. I'M JUST GOING OFF THE BULLET POINTS HERE. I WOULD ACTUALLY SAY YES TO NUMBER TWO, DESPITE JOHNNY. THANK YOU FOR THAT REALLY GOOD EXPLANATION OF THE GARAGE RATIONALE. THE PUD CONVERSATION WAS INTERESTING. I HAVE CONCERNS ABOUT PLACES LIKE MILLBROOK. I'VE ALREADY EXPRESSED THAT. SO I WOULD HAVE CONCERNS ABOUT THAT THIRD BULLET POINT. BUT I ABSOLUTELY AGREE WITH THE FOURTH BULLET POINT. BEFORE I KIND OF TURN MY TIME OVER, I WOULD JUST ASK, I THINK WE'VE TALKED ABOUT THIS BEFORE, BUT IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM, I DON'T HAVE A SPECIFIC EXAMPLE IN MY HEAD THAT'S LEADING TO THIS QUESTION.

BUT ARE THE CITY'S GOAL OF MORE HOUSING QUANTITY AT ODDS WITH THE NEED FOR PERVIOUS LAND AND WATER INFILTRATION? AND IF SO, HOW DO WE ADDRESS THAT? THAT MIGHT BE A BIGGER QUESTION WE CAN ADDRESS HERE. BUT, YOU KNOW, THOSE ARE BOTH GOALS THAT THE CITY HAS. AND I'M JUST MAKING I'M JUST TRYING TO LOOK AROUND THE CORNER TO MAKE SURE THAT WE'RE MEETING BOTH OF THOSE AT THE SAME TIME. YEAH. COMMISSIONER, I WOULD SAY THAT IS A PERFECT SETUP FOR THE CONVERSATIONS WE'LL BE HAVING OVER THE NEXT YEAR AND A HALF WITH THE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN, BECAUSE THOSE ARE EXACTLY THE KINDS OF QUESTIONS WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO GRAPPLE WITH AS A AS A COMMUNITY. WE KNOW WE NEED MORE HOUSING AS A AS A REGION, AND STILLWATER PROBABLY NEEDS MORE HOUSING AS A AS A COMMUNITY. AT THE SAME TIME, WE WANT TO BE PROTECTING OUR OPEN SPACE AND OUR WATER QUALITY. WHAT ARE THE KIND OF TOOLS TO MAKE THOSE FIT WELL TOGETHER? AND OBVIOUSLY YOU CAN'T HAVE ALL OF ONE OR ALL THE OTHER. IT HAS TO BE SOME KIND OF BALANCE.

SO I THINK THOSE ARE THE KINDS OF CONVERSATIONS AND WHETHER IT'S, YOU KNOW, ALLOWING SLIGHTLY TALLER BUILDINGS SO THAT YOU DON'T HAVE TO HAVE AS MUCH FOOTPRINT. MAYBE THAT'S ONE POSSIBILITY. MAYBE IT'S REUSING, YOU KNOW, OTHER IMPERVIOUS AREAS IN MORE INDUSTRIAL, THERE'S ALL KINDS OF DIFFERENT THINGS WE COULD COME UP WITH. BUT I THINK THOSE ARE EXACTLY THE QUESTIONS, BECAUSE THOSE ARE BOTH COMPETING DESIRES BY BY MOST PEOPLE. OR POSSIBLY MORE MORE ALLOW MORE IMPERVIOUS FOR MORE UNITS. SO. WELL, WE COULD ALSO

[02:00:13]